RE: Safety concerns over 'A' pillars

RE: Safety concerns over 'A' pillars

Friday 6th October 2006

Safety concerns over 'A' pillars

Sorry mate, I didn't see you...


Biker disappears behind 'A' pillar
Biker disappears behind 'A' pillar
The dangers posed by ever-thicker 'A' pillars in today's strengthened cars is coming increasingly under scrutiny. Research findings published yesterday by Autoglass warn drivers of 4x4 vehicles about the dangers of A pillar blind spots.

Road safety campaign Safe Speed campaign said it's been highlighting this danger for years but warned that that it isn't only 4x4 vehicles that suffer these problems.

'A' pillar blind spots are believed to be a common cause of 'Sorry mate, I didn't see you' (SMIDSY) crashes, and are especially dangerous to bikers.

Following Safe Speed's work on the issue with Bike magazine, published in September 2004, the Department for Transport commissioned urgent research. Safe Sped said it believed that the research was completed in March 2004, but that it remains unpublished for reasons unknown.

Campaign founder Paul Smith said: "Many cars in all classes have 'A pillars' that are wide enough to cause potential dangerous obstructions to drivers' vision. Safe Speed has been working to highlight the issue since 2002. Our findings, warnings and recommendations are published on the Web (see link below).

"The warnings published by Autoglass should be extended to all drivers. Making cars stronger and more 'crashworthy' has had the side-effect of making A pillars wider and stronger. The effects on drivers' vision have been largely ignored until recently."

Author
Discussion

flooritforever

Original Poster:

861 posts

242 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
This is all too true. Thick 'A' pillars can be a right pain. Don't have this trouble in my car, as it's hardly modern, but have to deal with it frequently at work.

We have two armoured security vans that I drive regularly, and the nature of the armour raound the cab means that the 'A' pillars are much thicker than they would normally be. At junctions and roundabouts, the can stop you from easily seeing large sections of road. And when that happens, pulling out gets pretty damn difficult...

And if everyday cars are getting this problem, it could cause a lot of accidents. Cos Mr or Mrs Average 'Driving is a chore, just get me where I'm going' ain't gonna really look much harder to compensate for the reduced visibilty.

supermono

7,368 posts

247 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
We used to have a Fiat Useless (I think it was) and the A pillar on that even had a little window in it but you still had to move about a lot to see properly.

Of course, the problem isn't with the A pillars necessarily -- I managed not to cause death and mayhem with the "sorry I didn't see you" ploy -- it's with the dimwits who can't be arsed to look around them properly...

SM

WIll Ferrari

114 posts

236 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
Here is the solution, Volvo developed this A pillar on a concept car about 5 years ago. Not made it into production yet though.

www.volvoclub.org.uk/graphics/pillar2.jpg

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
Just returned a Dodge Caliber to my collegue who does this issue's road test. TBH, the fact that with all the government safety regulations claptrap about, a car of which the obstruction the A-pillars (so far forward that they are exactly in your 3/4 front view on either side, and stratching to about 8-10" at their bases) poses to visibility is so blindingly (sic) obvious gets type approved everywhere in the world, says something about how far we are removed from common sense priorities with regards to road safety.
In fairness, it's an affliction of more or less any 'high rise' supermini, MPV or SUV/crossover of today, so perhaps it's unfair of me to single out this particular contraption. The Caliber still illustrates the point quite 'nicely', though...

Thing is, my Saab 900 has A-pillars so strong that they won't give in when you drop the car upside down from 7' height, but they are placed well back with almost 180 degree visibility afforded by that aircraft-inspired 'wraparound' windscreen (although it's a quite different story in a vertical plane - you have to duck when you're the first car waiting for overhead traffic lights to turn green). It's close to perfection. Still later models had a far more conventional, flatter windscreen with the A-pillars extending more forwards (in the 9000, of course that would be a function of its shared originns with Fiat/Alfa/Lancia). When asked why, for instance, the 'new' 900/9-3 didn't feature this arrangement, a designer said "We'd love to, but it's quite difficult if not impossible to homologate in some markets nowadays." WTF??

Timberwolf

5,340 posts

217 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
Well done Paul! clap

Turning another piece of tired SUV monomania into a reasoned debate about how far we can go with "safety" before "safety" in itself becomes dangerous.

Taken to an illogical conclusion, one could say that the current trend in vehicle design is towards us all driving around in cushioned pillboxes, in which an accident is almost impossible to avoid, but almost impossible to be injured in.

Would it be better to have lightweight cars with a decent glasshouse and all of the safety innovations that don't carry a major weight penalty, e.g. ABS, traction control, electronic stability, etc.? Therefore having an excellent chance of avoiding a collision and a reasonable chance of survival should one happen; rather than mediocre chances of collision avoidance and excellent chances of survival as per the current trend?

mk1fan

10,509 posts

224 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
Passive safety measures aside, it stills comes down to the person driving to check the coast is clear. If there is an increase in SMIDSY crashes this surely indicates the very low standards of driving in this country. Maybe one day a Government and it's Agency's will take measures to improve driving ability.

Tempting as it is to, I won't hold my breath.

Edited by mk1fan on Friday 6th October 12:12

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
I notice in the media that 4x4's are being singled out, or focused on, in being the worst offender for the "big pillar syndrome".

That's not necessarily fair to be honest. All modern cars are far safer in roll over tests that older cars of say 15 - 20 years ago. There have been natural increases in pillar size to permit this. This is not unique to 4x4's.

I used to have an E46 3 series coupe with air bags in the pillars, and that was aweful for blind spots. The cabriolet version was even worse! I have yet to "enjoy" the pleasure of driving the latest Leon, however cannot see how having the wipers in the pillars can be anything other than a genuine danger to motorcyclists and pedestrians due to the blind spots. Anyone driven one yet to confirm / dispute this?

Should the occupant safety (in fitting wide pillars and airbags) be at the cost of potential increase in danger to other road users????

mikeyboy

5,018 posts

234 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
I used to have a civic type r in which I hadn't noticed the blind spot until I was driving dwn a narrow country road one time the road angled off in such a way that I had to look towards the A pillar. The whole road disappearedeek let alone any cars on it. Couldn't see how this was a safety improvement. How many times do people roll cars then that these pillars need to be so thick?

pesmo

150 posts

238 months

Friday 6th October 2006
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The Ford C-Max is a good example of how bad this can get

pdV6

16,442 posts

260 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
I had a near SMIDSY incident a while back in the V70.

Approaching a crossroads at a give way, I did my usual "look right, left, right, left" routine to check all was clear. It was (or seemed to be) so on I went. Just caught a glimpse of something to my left, so chucked out the anchor and a Focus (hardly a small, bike-size thing) passed in front of my bow. :shudder:

I can only think that on the first look left it was obscured by the passenger's head and on the 2nd it had hidden behind the A-pillar. Makes you think.

Richards 7

124 posts

213 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
Yep agree ........4 x 4 singled out again....why?

My Discovery has lots of glass and well spaced pillars so I think very good. Certainly never caused me even to think about it. However.....My Audi A2, when it's not in the garage being repaired, has the most awful blindsports. Not only are the A pillars thick but they curve in an arc completely blocking a huge area. Never thought about this problem until the A2....terrible

gezkc

157 posts

210 months

Friday 6th October 2006
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I recently spent a few weeks with a Peugeot 407 SW hire car and couldn't believe how poor visibility was past the enormous A pillars, which seemed to extend to somewhere halfway down the bonnet!
Coupled with its enormous front overhang (made necessary by pedestrian safety legislation...) it meant the front of the car reached your destination a good couple of minutes before you did! Joining roundabouts was not an enjoyable experience!!

To Peugeot's credit, they do seem to be trying to address this issue - the 908RC concept at the Paris Motorshow has an interesting wraparound windscreen which is obviously aimed at improving front three-quarter visibility. Let's hope it reaches production soon!

turbosei

204 posts

239 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
Fiat have successfully designed the A-pillars on the Grande Punto so that they are at exactly the right position to block the entire oncoming lane when negotiating the many hairpins in Italy - and they don't have the widest roads through some of those quaint little villages!

telecat

8,528 posts

240 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
Fiat Stilo, Vaushall Meriva, Current Mondeo, Golf MKV all cars I have driven that have a stupid A pillar and bad forward visibility. I developed an aching back at times n the Mondeo from having to move around so much to see round them.

GTRene

16,374 posts

223 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all


Volvo SCC concept, they say this about that;
The Volvo SCC has a number of additional functions that improve visibility. The driver can see through the supporting pillars of the windscreen - the A-pillars - as a result of a metal box construction combined with see-through Plexiglas. The B-pillars - the pillars between the front and rear doors - curve inwards following the contours of the seat frame to offer an unobstructed field of vision to the offset rear.

GTRene

hugoagogo

23,378 posts

232 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
and when you add the thick A-pillar to the bid PDA navigation thing and mobile phone in a bracket all stuck right in the middle of the screen......

does anyone ever get stopped for having those things blocking their view?

hoov23

14 posts

210 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
I should say our Mazda 6 has this problem, I actually just said it to someone yesterday. Another blind spot exists where the driver seat and B-pilar combine. It really does get under my skin, I never feel comfortable driving like that. My '94 XJS coupe had really excellent visibility even though it didn't look like it...

MilnerR

8,273 posts

257 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
the GF's Fabia VRs has an A pillar that blocks out whole lanes of traffic. There was a study done a couple of years ago that showed a pretty convincing relationship between A pillar thickness and accident rates.

brian7642

1 posts

212 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
If you think it's bad on a 4 x 4 , try it on a Chrysler PT cruiser

robm3

4,927 posts

226 months

Friday 6th October 2006
quotequote all
My disco3 has good visibility allround except the B pillar is very thick creating a blind spot. Land Rober (sorry, just paid a 30K service cost of £540) don't put in a split wing mirror to compensate either!!
Can't complain about forward or 180 vision though and the added height is a big plus.