When is a van not a van
Discussion
Hi All,
Seasons greetings. Just got done speeding in my vw van, 70 in a 70 on an A road but not when its a panel van. The nice man in the clown suite said that if it had windows it would be ok for 70 in a 70/ A road, although its ok for 70 in a 70 on a motorway. Even if the van was fully windowed visibility wouldnt be any different as it has a bulkhead, so no rear view mirror.
Does anyone know the rules?
Seasons greetings. Just got done speeding in my vw van, 70 in a 70 on an A road but not when its a panel van. The nice man in the clown suite said that if it had windows it would be ok for 70 in a 70/ A road, although its ok for 70 in a 70 on a motorway. Even if the van was fully windowed visibility wouldnt be any different as it has a bulkhead, so no rear view mirror.
Does anyone know the rules?
Rule 124 in the Highway code
Built-up areas
Single carriage-ways
Dual carriage-ways
Motorways
Cars & motorcycles
(including car-derived vans up to 2 tonnes maximum laden weight)
30
60
70
70
Cars towing caravans or trailers
(including car-derived vans and motorcycles)
30
50
60
60
Buses, coaches and minibuses
(not exceeding 12 metres in overall length)
30
50
60
70
Goods vehicles
(not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
30
50
60
70
Goods vehicles
(exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
30
40
50
60
Built-up areas
Single carriage-ways
Dual carriage-ways
Motorways
Cars & motorcycles
(including car-derived vans up to 2 tonnes maximum laden weight)
30
60
70
70
Cars towing caravans or trailers
(including car-derived vans and motorcycles)
30
50
60
60
Buses, coaches and minibuses
(not exceeding 12 metres in overall length)
30
50
60
70
Goods vehicles
(not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
30
50
60
70
Goods vehicles
(exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
30
40
50
60
It's laughable isn't it? My landrover Defender van was the same, no windows so limited on dual carriageways.
There are a couple of threads that help muddy the water...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
There are a couple of threads that help muddy the water...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Schedule 6 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 defines various speed limits and defines vehicles mentioned above as:
car derived van - means a goods vehicle which is constructed as a derivative of a passenger vehicle and which has a maximum laden weight not exceeding 2 tonnes. ( Speed same as a motor car)
Goods vehicle - defined same as under RTA 88 - means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted for the use for the carriage of goods or a trailer so constructed.( Speed Restricted as mentioned)
A dual purpose vehicle is (briefly)
constructed/adapted for carriage of both passengers and goods
a vehicle with an unladen weight not exceeding 2040kgs which either is constructed/adapted that the driving power of the engine can be transmitted to all wheels or satisfies conditions:
must have rigid roof, transverse passenger seats and rear windows amongst other things.
With relation to speed limits dual purpose vehicles (not exceeding unladen weight of 3050kg or 8 passenger seats) have the speed limits as follows, (unless shown as restricted) are,
motorway 70mph
dual carriageway 70mph
single carriageway 60mph
dvd
car derived van - means a goods vehicle which is constructed as a derivative of a passenger vehicle and which has a maximum laden weight not exceeding 2 tonnes. ( Speed same as a motor car)
Goods vehicle - defined same as under RTA 88 - means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted for the use for the carriage of goods or a trailer so constructed.( Speed Restricted as mentioned)
A dual purpose vehicle is (briefly)
constructed/adapted for carriage of both passengers and goods
a vehicle with an unladen weight not exceeding 2040kgs which either is constructed/adapted that the driving power of the engine can be transmitted to all wheels or satisfies conditions:
must have rigid roof, transverse passenger seats and rear windows amongst other things.
With relation to speed limits dual purpose vehicles (not exceeding unladen weight of 3050kg or 8 passenger seats) have the speed limits as follows, (unless shown as restricted) are,
motorway 70mph
dual carriageway 70mph
single carriageway 60mph
dvd
Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Monday 31st December 16:14
So in amongst all these regs i am left wondering how BiB get away with 40 in a 40 limit in their transit derived vans with no rear windows.
Also where do ambulances fit in. goods vehicle derived multipurpose vehicle, fitted rear windows, transverse passenger seat in the front but no seats, as such, in the back just 2 lengthways beds. and its over 2040kg easily. Does it now class as a goods vehicle? is it a 'motorhome' as it has a bed?
Also sounds as if you got BiB on a bad day...
Also where do ambulances fit in. goods vehicle derived multipurpose vehicle, fitted rear windows, transverse passenger seat in the front but no seats, as such, in the back just 2 lengthways beds. and its over 2040kg easily. Does it now class as a goods vehicle? is it a 'motorhome' as it has a bed?
Also sounds as if you got BiB on a bad day...
[quote=Rebuilda]So in amongst all these regs i am left wondering how BiB get away with 40 in a 40 limit in their transit derived vans with no rear windows.
They are allowed to go 50mph on a single carriageway.
Also where do ambulances fit in. goods vehicle derived multipurpose vehicle, fitted rear windows, transverse passenger seat in the front but no seats, as such, in the back just 2 lengthways beds. and its over 2040kg easily. Does it now class as a goods vehicle? is it a 'motorhome' as it has a bed?
Remember the special exemption : Vehicles being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes are not subject to nay speed limit either on a restricted road or bvy virtue of their class if observance of the limit would be likely to hinder their use for the purpose which they are being used on that occasion (RTRA 84)
They are allowed to go 50mph on a single carriageway.
Also where do ambulances fit in. goods vehicle derived multipurpose vehicle, fitted rear windows, transverse passenger seat in the front but no seats, as such, in the back just 2 lengthways beds. and its over 2040kg easily. Does it now class as a goods vehicle? is it a 'motorhome' as it has a bed?
Remember the special exemption : Vehicles being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes are not subject to nay speed limit either on a restricted road or bvy virtue of their class if observance of the limit would be likely to hinder their use for the purpose which they are being used on that occasion (RTRA 84)
I was told the easy way to tell is the vehicles VAT status. If it is/was priced showing the price plus VAT it is commercial and the lower limits apply. If the price includes/included VAT that was not reclaimable it is non-commercial and the higher limits apply. I owned a Defender 90 which was sold originally as a commercial van variant and despite the later fitment of seats and windows, remained commercial plus VAT. I also owned a 90 County Station Wagon sold originally as a car, so no plus VAT and higher limits. Same with my current Doblo runabout - van version plus VAT lower limits, car version including VAT higher limits despite identical mechanicals.
biglepton said:
I was told the easy way to tell is the vehicles VAT status. If it is/was priced showing the price plus VAT it is commercial and the lower limits apply. If the price includes/included VAT that was not reclaimable it is non-commercial and the higher limits apply.
But what about Peugeot 206 & Renault Clio car derived vans (for instance) which have 'commercial vehicle' VAT status ? These are not subject to the reduced speed limits.Even if my van had rear windows viz wouldn't be affected at all, as its got a bulkhead,are the rear windows for increased viz/ safety issues. The van was bought without VAT indicating it isn't commercial.
Drove the rest of the journey on the way to glasgow........getting overtaken by artics doing 70. Easy money for the old bill its less risk than catching a burglar, who doesnt pay a fine when caught, just uses up the public money in jail/ hotel.
Drove the rest of the journey on the way to glasgow........getting overtaken by artics doing 70. Easy money for the old bill its less risk than catching a burglar, who doesnt pay a fine when caught, just uses up the public money in jail/ hotel.
SS2. said:
biglepton said:
I was told the easy way to tell is the vehicles VAT status. If it is/was priced showing the price plus VAT it is commercial and the lower limits apply. If the price includes/included VAT that was not reclaimable it is non-commercial and the higher limits apply.
But what about Peugeot 206 & Renault Clio car derived vans (for instance) which have 'commercial vehicle' VAT status ? These are not subject to the reduced speed limits.http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/dcsc/educadvi/...
telecat said:
Firstly the Transit Connect Tourneo is the seated Windowed version and it is available in the UK. Hence it is a CDV.
No it's not. CDV means car derived van, that is a van which has been derived from a car. Examples of CDV's are things like astravans which are based on a car range. The Transit Connect Tourneo is a windowed version of a vehicle originally designed to be a van, not a van version of a vehicle originally designed to be a car. 
Dwight VanDriver said:
Also where do ambulances fit in. goods vehicle derived multipurpose vehicle, fitted rear windows, transverse passenger seat in the front but no seats, as such, in the back just 2 lengthways beds. and its over 2040kg easily. Does it now class as a goods vehicle? is it a 'motorhome' as it has a bed?
Remember the special exemption : Vehicles being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes are not subject to nay speed limit either on a restricted road or bvy virtue of their class if observance of the limit would be likely to hinder their use for the purpose which they are being used on that occasion (RTRA 84)
I had this same argument with my local constabulary last May/June. My Sprinter was an ambulance, was constructed as an ambulance by GIFA (Bernard Collet) in France (considered a constructor of motor vehicles under EU law), therefore was NEVER a van, and has rear seats which by virtue of the stretcher plinth which means they cannot be transverse. It has a rear window which far exceeds the minimum area by a factor of two.Remember the special exemption : Vehicles being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes are not subject to nay speed limit either on a restricted road or bvy virtue of their class if observance of the limit would be likely to hinder their use for the purpose which they are being used on that occasion (RTRA 84)
The story goes - LVLA people suggested that it should be a "Dual Purpose Vehicle" since it was not a van, had three rear seats (with inertia reel belts) which are permanently fixed and not removable.
I got flashed by a grey&yellow revenue collection box doing 70 on the A14 in a NSL area.
Received the NIP. Phoned them, said it's a Dual Purpose Vehicle, they said - it says "goods vehicle" on their system - which it can't be as it was ambulance on the V5, and when I bought it, replaced ambulance with DPV.
They said - OK, send back the NIP, with evidence that it's a DPV (photo's of the seats/seatbelts etc..) which I did.
They then wrote back with a photocopy form NIP, and a letter saying that "They will inspect the vehicle and decide if it's a DPV".
I wrote back saying, that since classification would be dealt with by VOSA, I would write to DfT/VOSA and arrange to deal with it through them, not the Speed Camera Partnership who have no authority to decide what vehicle meets what criteria.
I wrote to VOSA, who said that it wasn't a matter for them, it was for the Police and Courts to decide. Eh? What? So Mercedes build a vehicle and have to apply to the police and go to court to decide what classification the vehicle fits. No. I don't think so.
So I wrote to DfT, who said that the matter was "theirs", and I should contact my local vehicle licencing office, who would arrange for VOSA to inspect the vehicle and report on whether the vehicle met the relevant criteria.
Full circle.
I contact LVLA who say, when you're ready, we'll book you in to the local VOSA inspection depot....
In the mean time, the cylinder head failed, the MoT ran out, I swapped the engine, took it for MoT, it passed, and promptly died on the way back with six run main bearings (oil pump failure!). It's taken until now to get it in to the workshop and stripped out.
I haven't heard anything from the SCP for over six months, but once I get the ruddy thing sorted, for peace of mind, I'm going to get it sorted out, just in case the spectre of the SCP returns, and I have something to stick up their shirts.
None of this helps you, but it shows what a disorganised bunch they are.
If I hadn't overtaken a 44-tonner as I passed the camera, the weight sensors in the road wouldn't have put the camera into "truck" mode, and I wouldn't have been flashed.
If your vehicle was a van, has no windows, has no rear seats, it is a van, and sorry, you're nicked!
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