Unfit for Purpose?

[parapaul]

In a nutshell - I bought some aftermarket alloys for his car, from a (locally) well-known and respected shop. The shop offered tyres fitted at a sensible price so I went for the whole lot. The guy in the shop asked specifically what car the wheels would be going on, and then subbed out the fitting to a local mobile fitter, with whom he presumably has an agreement.

It turns out, several thousand miles later that although the tyres are the right size, they are well below the manufacturer's OE spec - the load/speed index is 88W, when it should be 91Y. The tyres are otherwise fine, but I'm now concerened that if anything should happen, the insurers would not pay as they're effectively sub-standard. I know the speed index is a non-issue really, but I'm a little concerned about the load index.

I'm trying to scrape together the money to change all 4 tyres, but I thought I'd ask if it was worth complaining to the shop, or the tyre fitter, or both in the hope of some compensation?

[Mandat]

Did you specify exactly which tyres you wanted (including speed / load ratings) or did you leave this to the discretion of the shop?

[JustinP1]

Have you told the insurance company about the wheels?

[Dracoro]

The VAST majority of people don't so not go into that level of detail.

I'm a geek so will check all tyre stats to make sure I get exactly what I want.

However, most people will say the width and the wheel diameter (e.g. 195/16) and maybe a preference to make/model of tyre.

However, if you're buying tyres/wheels separate from the car then there is some onus to checking it's all ok as they won't know what car it's going to be on! However, all a consumer "should" have to say, is it's for a Ford Focus (or whatever the car is) and the seller of said wheels/tyres should be able to say whether they will be suitable for that car, especially given it's a legal/safety related item.

Whether the seller is reputable or professional enough is another question!

Edited by Dracoro on Monday 17th August 17:56

[Soovy]

JustinP1 said:

Have you told the insurance company about the wheels?

This.



If he sold you tyres which weren't what you asked for then he's in the wrong.

If you said "yeah fit those" or left it to him then you have Bob Hope and No Hope.



Care needed - you need to declare the wheels to be insured, and having substandard tyres will probably mean they won't pay out as well.

[Magic919]

It's not unusual for lower load rating tyres to get fitted. I've seen it with cars I've owned in the past. 88 to 91 is a difference of about 10%. I don't expect them to be overly keen to sort it unless you've got home and spotted it immediately.

[Mandat]

Dracoro said:

The VAST majority of people don't so not go into that level of detail.

I'm a geek so will check all tyre stats to make sure I get exactly what I want.

However, most people will say the width and the wheel diameter (e.g. 195/16) and maybe a preference to make/model of tyre.

However, if you're buying tyres/wheels separate from the car then there is some onus to checking it's all ok as they won't know what car it's going to be on! However, all a consumer "should" have to say, is it's for a Ford Focus (or whatever the car is) and the seller of said wheels/tyres should be able to say whether they will be suitable for that car, especially given it's a legal/safety related item.

Whether the seller is reputable or professional enough is another question!

But there would still be a big of difference in speed / load ratings for tyres on say a Focus ST and a bottom of the range model.

[robgee1964]

parapaul said:

It turns out, several thousand miles later that although the tyres are the right size, they are well below the manufacturer's OE spec - the load/speed index is 88W, when it should be 91Y. The tyres are otherwise fine, but I'm now concerened that if anything should happen, the insurers would not pay as they're effectively sub-standard. I know the speed index is a non-issue really, but I'm a little concerned about the load index.

88W is 560kg per tyre max, 168mph max

91Y is 630kg per tyre max, 186 mph max

Any fairly modern car should have a plate somewhere under the bonnet which gives the maximum gross vehicle weight along with the maximum front and rear axle loads.

Bearing in mind the axle load is spread over two tyres, then so long as the individual tyre rating is no less than half the max axle load, then you should be fine and its hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise.

You should check the numbers, although its quite unlikely you'll have a problem, as the manufacturer will have spec'd in a generous margin.

For example, I just had a look at my Mazda MX5. Max axle load (rear) 680kg, tyres are 82 (475 kg each). Therefore the tyres on that axle could take 950kg (assuming equal load).

There is a margin per tyre therfore of (950 - 680)/2 = 135kg.

Its suprising how easily you can exceed the individual axle load (esp. at the front if driver and passenger are er.. "amply built" The inspectorate have been known to camp out at the roadside with axle weigh pads, lots of vans getting caught at the mo.

[Dracoro]

Mandat said:

Dracoro said:

The VAST majority of people don't so not go into that level of detail.

I'm a geek so will check all tyre stats to make sure I get exactly what I want.

However, most people will say the width and the wheel diameter (e.g. 195/16) and maybe a preference to make/model of tyre.

However, if you're buying tyres/wheels separate from the car then there is some onus to checking it's all ok as they won't know what car it's going to be on! However, all a consumer "should" have to say, is it's for a Ford Focus (or whatever the car is) and the seller of said wheels/tyres should be able to say whether they will be suitable for that car, especially given it's a legal/safety related item.

Whether the seller is reputable or professional enough is another question!

But there would still be a big of difference in speed / load ratings for tyres on say a Focus ST and a bottom of the range model.

Well of course, I wasn't saying just the make/model, the point was consumers can't be expected to know whether 88Y or 91W is right, they'd just say it's a Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec or whatever. In much the same way as when most people buy, say, a computer they describe how they use it, roughly how much space/performance they want. They don't go in saying I need a Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core Q8300 Processor 2.5GHz, 4MB cache, 1333MHz FSB chip, the Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core Q8300 Processor (2.2GHz, 4MB cache, 1333MHz FSB simply won't do

[R3v 1]

Dracoro said:

Mandat said:

Dracoro said:

The VAST majority of people don't so not go into that level of detail.

I'm a geek so will check all tyre stats to make sure I get exactly what I want.

However, most people will say the width and the wheel diameter (e.g. 195/16) and maybe a preference to make/model of tyre.

However, if you're buying tyres/wheels separate from the car then there is some onus to checking it's all ok as they won't know what car it's going to be on! However, all a consumer "should" have to say, is it's for a Ford Focus (or whatever the car is) and the seller of said wheels/tyres should be able to say whether they will be suitable for that car, especially given it's a legal/safety related item.

Whether the seller is reputable or professional enough is another question!

But there would still be a big of difference in speed / load ratings for tyres on say a Focus ST and a bottom of the range model.

Well of course, I wasn't saying just the make/model, the point was consumers can't be expected to know whether 88Y or 91W is right, they'd just say it's a Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec or whatever. In much the same way as when most people buy, say, a computer they describe how they use it, roughly how much space/performance they want. They don't go in saying I need a Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core Q8300 Processor 2.5GHz, 4MB cache, 1333MHz FSB chip, the Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core Q8300 Processor (2.2GHz, 4MB cache, 1333MHz FSB simply won't do

I did not understand a word of that!

I had two new tyres fitted today and don't think I was once asked for the speed or load rating. Was just asked for the diameter and rim size (205/50/R16) I made sure though that each time I asked for a tyre I said I needed 87V aswell.

Ended up with pair of Firestone TZ200 that had bang on everything right.

[parapaul]

Mandat said:

Did you specify exactly which tyres you wanted (including speed / load ratings) or did you leave this to the discretion of the shop?

The shop specifically asked what car the wheels were going on - I clarified the wheel and tyre sizes but never even thought to ask about load ratings...

JustinP1 said:

Have you told the insurance company about the wheels?

Wheels, yes. Sub-standard tyres... not yet...

Dracoro said:

Whether the seller is reputable or professional enough is another question!

And should I take it up with the shop or the tyre fitter?

[cazzer]

Dracoro said:

They don't go in saying I need a Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core Q8300 Processor 2.5GHz, 4MB cache, 1333MHz FSB chip, the Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core Q8300 Processor (2.2GHz, 4MB cache, 1333MHz FSB simply won't do

I do

[Boosted LS1]

parapaul said:

Mandat said:

Did you specify exactly which tyres you wanted (including speed / load ratings) or did you leave this to the discretion of the shop?

The shop specifically asked what car the wheels were going on - I clarified the wheel and tyre sizes but never even thought to ask about load ratings...

JustinP1 said:

Have you told the insurance company about the wheels?

Wheels, yes. Sub-standard tyres... not yet...

Dracoro said:

Whether the seller is reputable or professional enough is another question!

And should I take it up with the shop or the tyre fitter?

Who did you ask to do the work and who did you pay?

[michaeljclark]

parapaul said:

Mandat said:

Did you specify exactly which tyres you wanted (including speed / load ratings) or did you leave this to the discretion of the shop?

I recently had to have new types fitted to my X-Type

They had to specially ordered as Jag only deem one Make/Model (Pirelli P-Zero Rosso - forget the rating) as acceptable for the alloy wheel on the car. I then checked my insurance docs and discovered that if the tyres fitted were not to manufacturer spec I would be in trouble if I made a claim

[mrmr96]

robgee1964 said:

Bearing in mind the axle load is spread over two tyres, then so long as the individual tyre rating is no less than half the max axle load, then you should be fine and its hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise.

Under braking or cornering there will be significantly more load on the tyres. So it's not right to divide the max axle weight by two and say "so long as a tyre can support this load it's fine" as the actual load on each individual tyre on an axle will be greater than half the axle load about 50% of the time.

[Dracoro]

Imagine going round a fast tight corner and braking heavily at the same time. That's a LOT of weight pressing on that front corner tyre.

[mrmr96]

Dracoro said:

Imagine going round a fast tight corner and braking heavily at the same time. That's a LOT of weight pressing on that front corner tyre.

Yes, that's why sometimes the rear inside tyre can lift up. Not reccomended to try this on the road deliberately though, obvisouly, however people may encounter this situation on the road if trying to avoid a collision.

[HellDiver]

If the tyre fitters are worth their salt, they'll change the tyres.

[robgee1964]

hora said:

OP- It looks like you bought one of those nasty wheel packages where the tyres are just black circles. Bin them. I dont think you have any comeback. Loads of places sell those sort of dubious value packages. I wonder how many Corsa/Nova owners have ended up wrapped round lamposts etc because of shoddy alloy deals

A lot of these cheap lowering kits will bugger up the handling too.

mrmr96 said:

Under braking or cornering there will be significantly more load on the tyres. So it's not right to divide the max axle weight by two and say "so long as a tyre can support this load it's fine" as the actual load on each individual tyre on an axle will be greater than half the axle load about 50% of the time.

Well I did say assuming even load, which of course sometimes it won't. Hence the safety margin in the spec'd figure. The static loading is a continous rating too, so there should be an allowance for dynamic variations.

It does sound like they could be crappy tyres though doesn't it? I had another look at my car, and all the tyres are the same load rating, even though the front and rear sets are different makes.

As an aside, as well as uber cheapy tyres, I'd avoid aftermarket alloys too, unless they can be proven to be decent. They are not always made to the same standards as OE wheels. The car manufacturers are able to check things like run-out, eccentricity and structural strength, so will accept only a decent quality item.