Tuning a 3.9 V8 Classic? Power and noise!!

[Mike_C]

OK, I haven't even got the car yet (Saturday!) but I'm already thinking about tuning it up. Nothing serious - the car will primarily be a road car, some light offroad use, through winter, etc etc. I know this engine has been used in 20+ different cars in various states of tune, so hopefully some parts are interchangable and easy to swap over for a few more ponies!

First and foremost however, I really want to make the most of the V8 noise, so what is the best way of doing this? I love the V8 'roar' on start-up and under acceleration, so what is the best route to take - I don't want to loose power, ideally would like to gain a few as I am sure it has lost some horses over the last 20 years!

Secondly, if I did want to look at tuning it, what options do I have? Not interested in engine swaps or internals really, engine has only covered 90k, so looking at other tuning options - manifolds, straight through systems, induction modifications, that sort of thing. They probably all go hand-in-hand with the above, but there we go - found these manifolds below which promise +20bhp, which seems optimistic!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RANGE-ROVER-V8-CLASSIC-BRANC...

Any thoughts?

[Liszt]

The best exhaust note I have heard was via Janspeed headers then a straight though pipe.

When you say "tune" and "no internals" can you be a bit more specific? At 90K the RV8 is getting tired and needs some love. There are a lot of things you can do to it and the amount of power is only limited by your wallet.

If your running injection then you need to think about remaps. Carbs you can look at a bigger carb like a Holley 500 with a sports inlet manifold. Think about a fast road cam and porting the engine.

They are great engines but they are still 50 years old in design, so expect to pay a lot of money and don't expect our Rangie to beat a modern hatch.
Can recommend Dave Ellis (Google DJ Ellis). He is not cheap but knows his onions and is a rangie fan.

[Mike_C]

Thanks for the advice! I don't really want to go as far as ported head, lairy cams or boring out the engine, more looking at helping it breathe a bit better (induction, but staying naturally aspirated) and let exhaust gases flow a bit better too!

Where's the best place to get a straight through system from then? Or can I just cut out the centre box and weld a straight pipe in?

[Liszt]

Pick up a copy of Landrover owner or Landrover monthly and have a look at the advertisers. Most have a good online presence. You can normally find stuff off the shelf so no need to weld it up just get a replacement straight through. Remember Rangies have been around since the 70s before all the emissions stuff.

rangerovers.net is a really good resource. As is Lr4x4.com.

[300bhp/ton]

Mike_C said:

OK, I haven't even got the car yet (Saturday!) but I'm already thinking about tuning it up. Nothing serious - the car will primarily be a road car, some light offroad use, through winter, etc etc. I know this engine has been used in 20+ different cars in various states of tune, so hopefully some parts are interchangable and easy to swap over for a few more ponies!

First and foremost however, I really want to make the most of the V8 noise, so what is the best way of doing this? I love the V8 'roar' on start-up and under acceleration, so what is the best route to take - I don't want to loose power, ideally would like to gain a few as I am sure it has lost some horses over the last 20 years!

Secondly, if I did want to look at tuning it, what options do I have? Not interested in engine swaps or internals really, engine has only covered 90k, so looking at other tuning options - manifolds, straight through systems, induction modifications, that sort of thing. They probably all go hand-in-hand with the above, but there we go - found these manifolds below which promise +20bhp, which seems optimistic!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RANGE-ROVER-V8-CLASSIC-BRANC...

Any thoughts?

Hi. This is quite a complex topic, so please bear with me and I'll try and write something helpful, but it might look like waffle!!!



Tuning the RV8 is the same as tuning any engine, as in it will respond in the same way to the same mods.

Improving breathing is always a good start.


In terms of exhaust, well there are off the shelf items but a custom made one might be better. Just make sure they don't charge you more because it's a V8, the stock exhaust is a single pipe, just like a 4 cylinder car so should cost no more in the after market.

As for exhaust sound, well there simply is a huge array of options. chambered or fibre packed silencers sound different. Personally if you want it to raw then some bullet silencers are easy to locate and should sound good.

In terms of sound, a dual exhaust with a large diameter H pipe would probably sound the best and be good for HP too. An X mid pipe will sound more racey and less old school, slightly better for high rpm work, but as the RV8 doesn't excel here is really matters not.

As said above, the stock system is a single exhaust using a Y pipe. Ideally I think you want 2.5" tubing for this, where as you could get away with 2" for dual setups.

A good exhaust will make it sound good, improve throttle response and liberate a few ponies.


If you want to really promote HP via an exhaust you need to change the exhaust manifolds/headers. This has almost nothing to do with flow, but something called exhaust scavenging. On an n/a car this introduces an extra cycle into the combustion process and can make a notable amount more power.

The problem lies that there are very few after market exhaust headers and they can get pricey. What is worse is most seem to have short primaries, which actually won't promote scavenging. Unless you are going forced induction I say find or have some custom long tube headers made or don't bother at all.

LT Headers can an will alter the sound a bit too and they'll affect the a/f ratio so much that you'll need to re-tune the car or it'll run like crap.


Induction. Cold, high volume and high flow air is good. So a straighter induction system with a high flow filter and a cold air feed will help here. Only small gains, but improved throttle response. But it is a compound affect, the more small mods you do, the greater overall affect and some mods will work better in conjunction with others.

Also most car makers go to extreme lengths to suppress induction noise and sound. Removing any baffles and sound suppression devices will be a benefit and help promote a nice induction growl too.

Something to note, most high flow air filters only flow more air due to less filtering. No normally an issue for road cars, but a 4x4 if it does go off road or exposed to sandy/dusty conditions this may become a greater concern.

To follow this, the stock air intake is designed to allow water wading and prevention of water getting in the intake easily. If you take out the air box and fit a cone filter it will not be as affective in this regard.

You could do a lot more induction wise, bigger or ported MAF, TB and ported induction manifolds. But ££££ can rack up quickly.


Cams - ok you said no internal work. But here I think you should consider it. First off, the RV8 is know to wear its cam AND followers. So a vehicle of this age won't be performing as it used to.

So even replacing with a stock cam will likely wake it up a bit. But I wouldn't do this. I'd go for a high lift cam. Ok in an RR with an auto box you won't want a race cam. But you can go wilder.


For a bit of info, I've got a 3.5RV8 in my Triumph TR7, I've also experienced a number of other RV8's in Landys (90, Series, RR, Disco).

My 3.5 is fairly heavily modded and the cam change made a huge difference. Before it really didn't like revs, anything over 3500-4000rpm was a struggle. Not now though, hit 3500rpm and it takes off. Bottom end is still good and tractable too and if I'm honest suspect it makes just as much power down low, but the difference is it doesn't run out off puff any longer.

So my advice is - fit a new higher lift cam!!!


You can go further with an n/a build.

But be warned - it is costly. The old RV8 is not a huge power house and will never make great specific output (hp per litre). A change of heads is good, but before you know it, you'll have dropped several grand in parts with ease.


So based on this I think there are other options well worth considering:


Nitrous Oxide

Ok it's often a dirty word or seen as chavvy or just not understood. But bear with me here.

It has several advantages, it's cheap, in a bhp/£ sense it is the most affective mod. You only use it when you need. You can easily remove it if you want to fit it to something else or sell the vehicle.

For around £1500 you could get a very good nitrous setup. With this you could run a 50-125hp shot of nitrous. Combine this with some other mods and there is no reason that running nitrous your engine can't be making 300hp+


Forced Induction

This includes superchargers and turbos.

You have quite a bit of choice. There are supercharger kits out there for the RV8, all could be adapted to an RR. Or you could fab up a kit. It isn't a cheap option but a nice result for road use. Running moderate boost levels also mean you shouldn't have to rebuild the engine either. If you want HUGE hp and boost you will need a built motor with forged internals.

Turbo's. You can buy some turbo exhaust manifolds for the RV8. Not cheap, but well made. You could then build up a twin turbo system or get someone to do it.

If on a cheaper budget then there is a thing known as remote or "rear mount" turbo's. Essentially you mount the turbo where the silencer might have been, towards the back of the car. This works out cheaper as you don't have to have fancy turbo manifolds.

Such systems are proven popular in the US on various cars. Google "STS Turbo" for more info on them.

I personally quite like this idea, I do have concerns over turbo lag with it, but when you think about it, the piping from the rear to front is not much different to running an intercooler and pipes with bends in. Exhaust gas velocity would then be the only concern, so you'd want to have a slightly different exhaust setup with such an option.

Again this won't be cheap, but it is cheaper than a full n/a build.




Sort of hope this helps a bit.

Ideally you really want to do a mix of some of the mods. If it was me I'd probably do this:


-Full exhaust custom made (stock headers)
-Proper CAI (cold air induction) and high flow induction filter
-High lift cam
-re-tune or switch to Megaquirt or similar
-Nitrous oxide



Lots of other additional mods to promote power, such as remove air con, run an electric water pump, run an electric cooling fan.


If you want to go big, then you could stroke the 3.9 to 4.8 litres, wild cam and head and all the gubbins. But it'll cost a fortune and still not make huge headline figures.


If you want to spend a bit more than just bolt ons, then forced induction is certainly worth thinking of.

[Mike_C]

Thanks 300bhp, that was very...indepth!!

Like I said, not interested in forced induction or mega power, it's a 20 year old RR at the end of the day, I'm more looking to make the most of what I've got both in terms of noise and performance.

To that end, I think a free-flowing exhaust system could well be worth a look. It's a 1991 car so will it have a cat? And if it does and I were to decat it, will that fail the MOT on a car of that age?

I was planning on fit an open cone filter for road use, but would keep the stock air filter system for offroad use - how does its design prevent water flooding of the engine then?

Any recommendations for a nice sounding exhaust and induction setup for me?

Cheers!

[300bhp/ton]

Mike_C said:

Thanks 300bhp, that was very...indepth!!

Like I said, not interested in forced induction or mega power, it's a 20 year old RR at the end of the day, I'm more looking to make the most of what I've got both in terms of noise and performance.

To that end, I think a free-flowing exhaust system could well be worth a look. It's a 1991 car so will it have a cat? And if it does and I were to decat it, will that fail the MOT on a car of that age?

Emissions regs mean you don't need a cat on pre 93 car in the UK. Not sure if a 91 would have one or not, but if it has you can remove it.

Mike_C said:

I was planning on fit an open cone filter for road use, but would keep the stock air filter system for offroad use - how does its design prevent water flooding of the engine then?

It's to do with the inlet location to the airbox, so it is protected from splash intrusions. Also within the air box the out let is high up, so to get water in it, you'd actually need a lot of water in the airbox first. There is also a one way vale at the bottom of the airbox (although they get glogged if not cleaned) to let any water back out.

Mike_C said:

Any recommendations for a nice sounding exhaust and induction setup for me?

Cheers!

Induction wise I suspect an off the shelf kit will be easy to fit. Not sure who makes one for the RRC, but I'd check out Pipercross, ITG and K&N. Might also be worth a look on eBay and Google too.

As a rule I'm not a huge fan of cotton weave filters (K&N and similar). They do out flow paper filters, but at a cost of not filtering as well. And they need cleaning more often than a paper filter needs changing and then reoiling which is messy and easy to over oil. Too much oil reduces the flow rate and the excess oil can get on the MAF and be a pita.

Also a glogged K&N will flow a lot less air than a dirty paper filter.

That said, a large cone filter will still have a greater surface area, make a nice intake noise and is likely to be a HP improvement over the standard arrangement.

I do quite like good foam filters, although cheap ones don't filter well at all. Some still need oiling too.

The best filter material is a synthetic weave like Donaldson. But it is not widely available for regular road cars.


In terms of exhaust. Well as said above, you could buy an off the shelf one. A good number to chose from. Janspeed is well known, although early ones certainly didn't fit very well. Not so sure how they are today though.

My gripe with some off the shelf ones though, is many actually aren't that loud and you pay a lot just because it's off the shelf yet may still use crappy silencers.

I'd be tempted to have a look at a custom exhaust such as Power Flow (try Google to find a local outlet).

They'll custom build and fit it to the vehicle. So you can basically choose how loud or quiet you want it to be.

Such a system is on my Uncles V8 90 (used to be my brothers). The exhaust has been on since 2001 and looks and sounds great.

I would still highly advise a cam swap though, even if just for a stock one. It'll probably be cheaper than an exhaust but it will make a difference.

[Mike_C]

My problem with the custom exhausts - Powerflow, etc - is that you never know quite what they'll sound like as each one is different, and I remember they always used to use very low grade stainless steel - this may have changed of course, but 5/6 years ago when I was more 'into' cars (rather than motorbikes) that was the case.

I guess youtube may provide the answer - just search for some on there, I bet there's loads of video clips! I'm just really keen to make the most of that V8 rumble...

[BLUETHUNDER]

On my old 3.5 classic i was running a SS full system including headers.A very good sound and no droning at motorway speeds. It also had a DPR Sprintex blower that was pumping out around 280bhp. It pulled like a train.

[Mike_C]

Who was the SS system made by BLUETHUNDER?

[BLUETHUNDER]

Mike_C said:

Who was the SS system made by BLUETHUNDER?

It was a company based at Crawley near Gatwick. I dont know if they are still trading. It was a custom built job. Left the car with them for a three days while they built and fitted.The rear box was nicely made.It had twin 3inch diameter rear pipes that were flicked off at the rear nearside.

Me and my mate had them done at the same time.He was running No 2 CSK at the time.

[DonkeyApple]

Have you thought about taking all the doors off?

This would make the exhaust sound louder and the car lighter, thus helping performance. And it would cost nothing.

[300bhp/ton]

DonkeyApple said:

Have you thought about taking all the doors off?

This would make the exhaust sound louder and the car lighter, thus helping performance. And it would cost nothing.

Why do people post such pointless things sometimes.....

[DonkeyApple]

300bhp/ton said:

DonkeyApple said:

Have you thought about taking all the doors off?

This would make the exhaust sound louder and the car lighter, thus helping performance. And it would cost nothing.

Why do people post such pointless things sometimes.....

Really? How much money would you need to spend to get a truly noticeable increase in performance on a Rangie?

Outside of cleaning everything up and covering the obvious things in your own garage just what is the point in spending money on 'souping up' a van.

If you want a louder exhaust then tinkering with the rear box is not going to cost you anything, if you must.

The only smart thing to add to an old Rangie is an anti roll bar on the back. Once you have done that your Rangie will be the fasted one around. The brakes are good enough and the engine as well, the amount of money you'd need to spend to get a real improvement is silly and then once you are at 80 it still won't be enough to overcome the fridgelike dynamics.

Hence, taking the doors off is a sensible solution to such a sensible problem

[300bhp/ton]

DonkeyApple said:

300bhp/ton said:

DonkeyApple said:

Have you thought about taking all the doors off?

This would make the exhaust sound louder and the car lighter, thus helping performance. And it would cost nothing.

Why do people post such pointless things sometimes.....

Really? How much money would you need to spend to get a truly noticeable increase in performance on a Rangie?

Outside of cleaning everything up and covering the obvious things in your own garage just what is the point in spending money on 'souping up' a van.

If you want a louder exhaust then tinkering with the rear box is not going to cost you anything, if you must.

The only smart thing to add to an old Rangie is an anti roll bar on the back. Once you have done that your Rangie will be the fasted one around. The brakes are good enough and the engine as well, the amount of money you'd need to spend to get a real improvement is silly and then once you are at 80 it still won't be enough to overcome the fridgelike dynamics.

Hence, taking the doors off is a sensible solution to such a sensible problem

Considering what your profile claims I'm surprised by such an odd attitude........


shame really.

[Mike_C]

Ladies, ladies, please, no arguements in my thread!! ;-)

DonkeyApple - I completely understand what you're saying don't worry - I did say all along, I just want to make the most of the V8 rather than 'tune' it, so just make sure it's running at its best and sounding great too, rather than being the quickest thing off the lights - as you say, a 2 tonne brick will never be "quick"!!

[300bhp/ton]

Mike_C said:

Ladies, ladies, please, no arguements in my thread!! ;-)

DonkeyApple - I completely understand what you're saying don't worry - I did say all along, I just want to make the most of the V8 rather than 'tune' it, so just make sure it's running at its best and sounding great too, rather than being the quickest thing off the lights - as you say, a 2 tonne brick will never be "quick"!!

It might never be quick in terms of performance cars, but some simple tweaks can make one hell of a difference to how they drive IMO. And in terms of speed vs most normal cars, they are more than capable.

[DonkeyApple]

300bhp/ton said:

DonkeyApple said:

300bhp/ton said:

DonkeyApple said:

Have you thought about taking all the doors off?

This would make the exhaust sound louder and the car lighter, thus helping performance. And it would cost nothing.

Why do people post such pointless things sometimes.....

Really? How much money would you need to spend to get a truly noticeable increase in performance on a Rangie?

Outside of cleaning everything up and covering the obvious things in your own garage just what is the point in spending money on 'souping up' a van.

If you want a louder exhaust then tinkering with the rear box is not going to cost you anything, if you must.

The only smart thing to add to an old Rangie is an anti roll bar on the back. Once you have done that your Rangie will be the fasted one around. The brakes are good enough and the engine as well, the amount of money you'd need to spend to get a real improvement is silly and then once you are at 80 it still won't be enough to overcome the fridgelike dynamics.

Hence, taking the doors off is a sensible solution to such a sensible problem

Considering what your profile claims I'm surprised by such an odd attitude........


shame really.

Just what is odd about not seeing any point in spending a wad of hard earned money on things that just won't make a difference in the end?

Do you genuinely think that after a basic clean up anything short of super charging or an engine out rework to something of TVR spec (plus the associated upgrades) would deliver any kind of sensible return?

I believe that JE costs would be around £30k to get a noticeable improvement and I have bills for over £80k.

[300bhp/ton]

DonkeyApple said:

300bhp/ton said:

DonkeyApple said:

300bhp/ton said:

DonkeyApple said:

Have you thought about taking all the doors off?

This would make the exhaust sound louder and the car lighter, thus helping performance. And it would cost nothing.

Why do people post such pointless things sometimes.....

Really? How much money would you need to spend to get a truly noticeable increase in performance on a Rangie?

Outside of cleaning everything up and covering the obvious things in your own garage just what is the point in spending money on 'souping up' a van.

If you want a louder exhaust then tinkering with the rear box is not going to cost you anything, if you must.

The only smart thing to add to an old Rangie is an anti roll bar on the back. Once you have done that your Rangie will be the fasted one around. The brakes are good enough and the engine as well, the amount of money you'd need to spend to get a real improvement is silly and then once you are at 80 it still won't be enough to overcome the fridgelike dynamics.

Hence, taking the doors off is a sensible solution to such a sensible problem

Considering what your profile claims I'm surprised by such an odd attitude........


shame really.

Just what is odd about not seeing any point in spending a wad of hard earned money on things that just won't make a difference in the end?

Do you genuinely think that after a basic clean up anything short of super charging or an engine out rework to something of TVR spec (plus the associated upgrades) would deliver any kind of sensible return?

I believe that JE costs would be around £30k to get a noticeable improvement and I have bills for over £80k.

So are you pissed because of the money you've spent?

A few simple upgrades can make a huge difference. Ok if you are thinking umm stock V8 +£100 grand, now it'll beat Ferrari's......

Of course that respect it won't make many odds. But in terms of feel and real world usability a few affordable mods can make all the difference.

Let's face, adjusting just the smoke screw on a Tdi can make them drive totally differently.

A 2.0 Focus is hardly double the HP of a 1.6, but it's still noticeable.


In short an extra 20hp+ and a crisper throttle will be hugely evident in an RRC, the same as it will in any car.



EDIT: And how the fk would you need £30k to see a difference??????????????????????? You could buy a new 5.3 litre V8 with over 300hp for under £8k, fitting would not be £28,000.


As for your claim of £80,000, I'm sorry but WTF, are you on drugs or did they supply a solid silver gold plated crate engine?

What exactly did you get for eighty thousand pounds worth of mods??

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Monday 8th November 10:12

[Mike_C]

I'm guessing the most cost effective option would be to swap the engine for a TVR engine, although not sure if the auto would line up easily?

Still, as I said, I'm not bothered about chasing big gains or anything like that, just getting it running at its best and sounding great!