M25 variable limit cameras

[pdV6]

I've always understood that the gantry-mounted GATSOs in the variable speed limit section of the M25 were only active when the limit matrix signs were switched on. I understand that this is simply a policy decision rather than a technical issue, but has the policy been changed?

I only ask because I was approaching J12 (M3) clockwise at about 3pm yesterday when I saw one of the cameras flash on the opposite carriageway. I thought it was a bit harsh, as this was outside of the J12/J15 widening roadworks on a clear and sunny afternoon and the road wasn't that busy. Therefore I glanced in my mirror as I passed to see what speed limit was set... but the matrix boards were all blank.

Very very harsh if the powers that be have now decided to enforce the default 70 limit via the gantry cameras.

Anyone with inside knowledge care to enlighten us?

[JonRB]

Whether or not to enforce at NSL is an operator decision.
The system is fully capable of doing so and always has been.

[gone]

Sorry to have to tell you this but the limit is 70mph!

If you want to go faster than this without penalty, pay your £25 for a track day and drive as fast as you like.

Until then, you have to gamble whether your need for speed is greater than your need for the cash to stay in your wallet and the stress to stay out of your life

p.s. you could always organise a convoy to travel at 56mph between 2 service areas to show your disapproval. That is of course if you can find a section where you can actually manage to achieve and increase in speed to 56mph during the day !

[Mr Whippy]

Get ready for some pile up's when people slam on in lane 3 then!
Wasn't that the whole reason they stopped putting them on motorways?

I've seen people slowing down even on mildly busy motorway for ANPR DVLA cameras on bridges, mistaking them for speeding camera's, and the mis-match of speeds, and rates of braking cause some disturbing behaviour!

Imagine what would happen on a busy motorway

Dave

[outnumbered]

pdV6 said:

I've always understood that the gantry-mounted GATSOs in the variable speed limit section of the M25 were only active when the limit matrix signs were switched on. I understand that this is simply a policy decision rather than a technical issue, but has the policy been changed?

A Surrey Traffic BiB on another forum stated that they have always been active all the time, but that the trigger speed when the variable speed is off is very high. It used to be 100+, but I seem to remember him saying that it had been reduced to 97 or something about a year ago.

He also said that the inside lanes don't often have live cameras.

EG:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.rec.motorcycles/browse_frm/thread/c89e854053ac4759/907553fb261d8358?q=group:uk.rec.motorcycles+m25+variable+jp&rnum=4&hl=en#907553fb261d8358

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.rec.motorcycles/browse_frm/thread/e2beccc04e1f471c/7e554a8608aaedea?q=group:uk.rec.motorcycles+m25+variable+jp&rnum=1&hl=en#7e554a8608aaedea

[tim.tonal]

gone said:

Sorry to have to tell you this but the limit is 70mph! ....

Yeah, rubbish, innit!

[puggit]

Someone on the S2000 forum said she got flashed at around 80mph. She's outside the 14 days NIP period now.

[havoc]

gone said:

If you want to go faster than this without penalty, pay your £25 for a track day and drive as fast as you like.

Erm, you'll be lucky to find a trackday for < £100. And then there's the small issue of insurance...and tyre wear...and brake wear...and changing the brake fluid beforehand ideally...oh and you'll need a helmet (or hire a smelly one!)...

Alternatively, there's that small issue called "common sense", which says that the law hasn't changed for > 40 years, while cars have got many times safer than they were 40 years ago, so why is the speed limit still the same here?!?

Alternatively, there's that little issue that says that if the French can legally drive at 130km/h, and the Italians 150km/h, and the Germans (well, depends where...), then what is so bad about the UK M-ways and M-way users that we are restricted to 112km/h???


"The law is the law" is one of the most over-used and under-informative phrases around. Laws have continually evolved and changed as necessary to reflect the mores and attitudes of society...this is a necessary and healthy part of a social democracy.

Take one example: usury. Used to be a crime. Now an established and widely accepted way to rip off your fellow man!

Except with speed limits, some numpty's in London (where even 30mph is rare!) seem to feel that "speed is bad", and in fact are reducing limits on a significant number of roads, despite all these advances in safety and road-engineering! Funny that, eh?!?

[pdV6]

gone said:

Sorry to have to tell you this but the limit is 70mph! etc etc etc

Gosh thanks Steve - I'd forgotten that for a moment.

Any chance of answering the genuine enquiry rather than knee-jerking? Never mind, some sensible answers have arrived

[supraman2954]

Mr Whippy said:

Get ready for some pile up's when people slam on in lane 3 then! Wasn't that the whole reason they stopped putting them on motorways? I've seen people slowing down even on mildly busy motorway for ANPR DVLA cameras on bridges, mistaking them for speeding camera's, and the mis-match of speeds, and rates of braking cause some disturbing behaviour! Imagine what would happen on a busy motorway Dave

I can only assume you don't know what's been happening on the M4 recently

[Tiger]

I've noticed these flashing recently there seem to be a couple btween M40 & M4 one just after Heathrow and then just about every gantry between J13 and M23.

One thing they don't have hwoever is the Yellow plate found on side of the road cameras. Quite stealthy really and not playing fair. The SPECS cameras that were fitted to overhead gantrys on the M6 had the yellow highlight so I wonder why the M25 one's don't

Wonder why when itsw policy to put the highlight on the side of the road ones that the overhead ones are hidden.

And yes I do know that the gantrys have a camera logo but these are presentr even if a camera isn't.

[Mr Whippy]

Yeah, trackdays are expensive.

You already pay for the roads, just find one with no scamera's to go fast on

Dave

[hedders]

Mr Whippy said:

I've seen people slowing down even on mildly busy motorway for ANPR DVLA cameras on bridges, mistaking them for speeding camera's <snip> Dave

You can bet your arse That if i see a van with blacked out windows parked on a bridge I hit the brakes first and ask questions later.

I will be checking my mirrors as i do it, but my first response is "BRAKES!!!"

Then again I am usually doing more than 70 units of earth speed on motorways if the conditions allow.

[gone]

havoc said:

gone said: If you want to go faster than this without penalty, pay your £25 for a track day and drive as fast as you like. Erm, you'll be lucky to find a trackday for < £100. And then there's the small issue of insurance...and tyre wear...and brake wear...and changing the brake fluid beforehand ideally...oh and you'll need a helmet (or hire a smelly one!)...

Erm
Balanced against 3 points or more, the possibility of loaded insurance next renewal, and the gamble of whether a FPT will be offered or a visit to the beak with an attendant expensive legal expert!

£100 seems like a bargain to me
Do the people that decide to exceed the limit on public roads have their brake fluid changed first?

I have been on track days recently (and good ones as well which are properly marshalled) for an entry price of £100 which split between 3 drivers was not extortionate. There is also the possibility of going to open days at places liike Castle Coombe where you chance it with the attendant loonies in their Astras for £25 a shot!

havoc said:

Alternatively, there's that small issue called "common sense", which says that the law hasn't changed for > 40 years, while cars have got many times safer than they were 40 years ago, so why is the speed limit still the same here?!?

Because driver ability and overcrowded roads have not improved with the increase in technical improvement on vehicles.

havoc said:

Alternatively, there's that little issue that says that if the French can legally drive at 130km/h, and the Italians 150km/h, and the Germans (well, depends where...), then what is so bad about the UK M-ways and M-way users that we are restricted to 112km/h???

The difference is

1. French/German motorways are in France/Germany not here.
2. Why does 18kph (approx 11mph) make such a difference?

havoc said:

"The law is the law" is one of the most over-used and under-informative phrases around. Laws have continually evolved and changed as necessary to reflect the mores and attitudes of society...this is a necessary and healthy part of a social democracy.

Until it has evolved and changed, then unfortunately it is still 'the law'

havoc said:

Except with speed limits, some numpty's in London (where even 30mph is rare!) seem to feel that "speed is bad", and in fact are reducing limits on a significant number of roads, despite all these advances in safety and road-engineering! Funny that, eh?!?

I am not laughing

>> Edited by gone on Monday 9th May 14:28

[Wildcat]

Ja - we split the track day costs too Und we have toppest time. Und the girlies in this family teach those mere boys a thing or two

lieber gone said:

havoc said: Alternatively, there's that small issue called "common sense", which says that the law hasn't changed for > 40 years, while cars have got many times safer than they were 40 years ago, so why is the speed limit still the same here?!? Because driver ability and overcrowded roads have not improved with the increase in technical improvement on vehicles.

Und they are not doing much to address either problem - better driver training und motivation - und building roads without bottlenecks....und they create them mit silly humps und chicanes too...

lieber gone said:

havoc said: Alternatively, there's that little issue that says that if the French can legally drive at 130km/h, and the Italians 150km/h, and the Germans (well, depends where...), then what is so bad about the UK M-ways and M-way users that we are restricted to 112km/h??? The difference is 1. French/German motorways are in France/Germany not here.

But their average persons are still no more nor less talented than average Brit.

Und in a "closely knit" EU - we should all have that speed limit.

lieber gone said:

2. Why does 18kph (approx 11mph) make such a difference?

[one of them wimmin modes on]

BECAUSE IT DOES - OK!

[one of them wimmin modes off ]

lieber gone said:

havoc said: "The law is the law" is one of the most over-used and under-informative phrases around. Laws have continually evolved and changed as necessary to reflect the mores and attitudes of society...this is a necessary and healthy part of a social democracy. Until it has evolved and changed, then unfortunately it is still 'the law'

Und we change by rebelling Walls have fallen before now

lieber gone said:

havoc said: Except with speed limits, some numpty's in London (where even 30mph is rare!) seem to feel that "speed is bad", and in fact are reducing limits on a significant number of roads, despite all these advances in safety and road-engineering! Funny that, eh?!? I am not laughing >> Edited by gone on Monday 9th May 14:28

Ist ridiculous to keep lowering. Italy increased some stretches to 140 kph - und "incidente" have reduced on these roads. They are thinking of extending as so successful.

Accidents will not go away on more urban dual carriageways just by reducing to 30 mph from 40 mph. In fact - looking at Lancs' claims justifying scams - they even appear to have increased....on these roads. So ist not speed then!

But then - ist just stats to justify the revenue raising. - as per usual

>> Edited by Wildcat on Monday 9th May 14:52

[havoc]

gone said:

The difference is 1. French/German motorways are in France/Germany not here. 2. Why does 18kph (approx 11mph) make such a difference?

Point 1 - my question was what quantifiable or qualitative difference is there between French/German/italian roads and French/German/Italian drivers, and their counterparts in the UK???

If there is an identifiable difference, then surely our government, in the best interests of it's citizens, should be doing something to address that difference.

BUT, if there is no identifiable difference, then there is no reason the speed limits in the UK shouldn't match those on the continent!



Point 2 - OK, so you're saying why does 11mph make such a difference. Can I use that if I ever get an NIP to get them to waive it?!?

Martin said:

"but officer, I was only doing 81 on that dual carriageway, my mate gone said it doesn't make much difference!!!"

[Jesting aside, can you now see the other side of the coin? If it (15% over limit) makes THAT little difference, why is our government obsessed with enforcing our current limits in increasingly draconian ways, usually within 15%???...which brings us back to my point above about evolution of laws. What good is a law if the majority of the population routinely breach it? The old blasphemy laws are a case in point there as well.]

[JonRB]

I find it hard to reconcile "gone" with the nice chap I went out for a drive with a few years ago who egged me on to a highly enjoyable and satisfying 'extreme overtake' and several instances of 'making progress'.

I conclude that Steve probably just likes playing Devil's Advocate and winding people up on PH.

[tim.tonal]

Imagine if all the cars rigidly kept within 70mph - vehicles generally travelling at speeds within 14mph of each other and most of the cars nearer the 70mph end of the range across 3 lanes of the motorway.

This resulting clumps of traffic across 3 or 4 lanes cause increased difficulty changing lane (and taking eyes off the road in front more) and increased risk from the 'change lane first use mirrors after' brigade or other such hazards not to mention reducing escape routes' out of trouble spots.

I can't just be a coincidence when motorway speed limits have been increased the accidents have reduced. Here they want us to all drive cheek-by-jowl with each other but surely this increases the chance of the crash happening in the first place.

[havoc]

tim.tonal said:

I can't just be a coincidence when motorway speed limits have been increased the accidents have reduced. Here they want us to all drive cheek-by-jowl with each other but surely this increases the chance of the crash happening in the first place.

Yes but when they do the impact speeds will be minimal and no-one will be hurt, so it doesn't matter then!!!

After all, they don't have NCBs and really high insurance premiums to worry about!!!

[tim.tonal]

havoc said:

tim.tonal said: I can't just be a coincidence when motorway speed limits have been increased the accidents have reduced. Here they want us to all drive cheek-by-jowl with each other but surely this increases the chance of the crash happening in the first place. Yes but when they do the impact speeds will be minimal and no-one will be hurt, so it doesn't matter then!!! After all, they don't have NCBs and really high insurance premiums to worry about!!!

Dunno - a crash at 70 is pretty bad especially if it involves multiple vehicle or trucks or the other carriageway. Perhaps we should do 20 everywhere with pillows attached all around the car. Have to be careful - the authorities may think this is a good idea - they seem to have started this in London!