M42 Matrix signals, legal question.
Discussion
Signs activated tonight as lane closures being put in place.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
Flat in Fifth said:
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
M53 today - Red Cross above lane 2 (2 lane mway). Bloke in Audi belting down totally oblivious. Red IAM badge on front of car.
shuvitupya said:
As long as you don't activate the Gatso's by speeding, you will be fine unless followed by BiB I guess.
I abuse the M42 every day, and still have a licence
I abuse the M42 every day, and still have a licence
I didn't think they were Gatsos, thought they were new video, number plate recognition, blah blah, babble babble jobbies on the variable limit section? I'm still shitting bricks as I didn't think there were any cameras (yes I saw the signs - just not the cameras
) on the way upto Back Home a few weeks back - haven't had anything in the post yet - fingers crossed, touch wood etc...Actually its easy to tell which gantries have cameras and which do not, in day time at least.
As you approach if you look at the space between the matrix signs, if there is what looks like a CCTV unit hanging down in each of those spaces then there will be the grey box camera jobby wossnames lurking behind the matrix signs on each lane.
tbh I have never seen a flash on this section yet, day or night.
As you approach if you look at the space between the matrix signs, if there is what looks like a CCTV unit hanging down in each of those spaces then there will be the grey box camera jobby wossnames lurking behind the matrix signs on each lane.
tbh I have never seen a flash on this section yet, day or night.
Flat in Fifth said:
Actually its easy to tell which gantries have cameras and which do not, in day time at least.
As you approach if you look at the space between the matrix signs, if there is what looks like a CCTV unit hanging down in each of those spaces then there will be the grey box camera jobby wossnames lurking behind the matrix signs on each lane.
tbh I have never seen a flash on this section yet, day or night.
As you approach if you look at the space between the matrix signs, if there is what looks like a CCTV unit hanging down in each of those spaces then there will be the grey box camera jobby wossnames lurking behind the matrix signs on each lane.
tbh I have never seen a flash on this section yet, day or night.
Is it a lot easier than that as they have placed them on gantries which cross both carriageways. Just look at the gantry on the other side - if it has gatso boxes then your side will as well.
M42 has both gatso for speed enforcement, ANPR for traffic monitoring (every 500m) and IL for speed measurement (every 100m)
angrys3owner said:
shuvitupya said:
As long as you don't activate the Gatso's by speeding, you will be fine unless followed by BiB I guess.
I abuse the M42 every day, and still have a licence
I abuse the M42 every day, and still have a licence
I didn't think they were Gatsos, thought they were new video, number plate recognition, blah blah, babble babble jobbies on the variable limit section? I'm still shitting bricks as I didn't think there were any cameras (yes I saw the signs - just not the cameras
) on the way upto Back Home a few weeks back - haven't had anything in the post yet - fingers crossed, touch wood etc...As bluepolarbear says above, the gatsos enforce the variable speed limits, and are the big grey boxes. The other cameras are just for monitoring traffic flow, so the system knows when to apply speed limits or close lanes etc.
shuvitupya said:
As bluepolarbear says above, the gatsos enforce the variable speed limits, and are the big grey boxes. The other cameras are just for monitoring traffic flow, so the system knows when to apply speed limits or close lanes etc.
They are used for more than that. Each vehicle has it entry and exit to that section of motorway monitored and recorded to build up a picture of traffic movements. Your journey is tagged againist your number plate and kept by the state.
Vaux said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
M53 today - Red Cross above lane 2 (2 lane mway). Bloke in Audi belting down totally oblivious. Red IAM badge on front of car.
You must read an Audi hand book, it says you are exempt from speed limits. John
bluepolarbear said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Actually its easy to tell which gantries have cameras and which do not, in day time at least.
As you approach if you look at the space between the matrix signs, if there is what looks like a CCTV unit hanging down in each of those spaces then there will be the grey box camera jobby wossnames lurking behind the matrix signs on each lane.
tbh I have never seen a flash on this section yet, day or night.
As you approach if you look at the space between the matrix signs, if there is what looks like a CCTV unit hanging down in each of those spaces then there will be the grey box camera jobby wossnames lurking behind the matrix signs on each lane.
tbh I have never seen a flash on this section yet, day or night.
Is it a lot easier than that as they have placed them on gantries which cross both carriageways. Just look at the gantry on the other side - if it has gatso boxes then your side will as well.
On a minor point I disagree with that.
The gatsos are painted the same grey as the gantry, and from a distance and in poor light blend into the background. The only part which is visible from a distance is the lighter grey rectangle, flash unit? Plus you have to look at the opposite carriageway.
To my eyes the camera like objects hanging down in free space with sky as the background are spotted much earlier. Hence I think it is not easier to look for the gatso boxes on the opposing carriageway.
Getting back to the original question.
The electric signage is put on whilst the roadworks crew install the cones and hard signage, commonly known as a "Chapter 8" This is just like any other obstruction, or lane closure that you would come across, with a Red "X" over each closed lane, going through the red "X" is illegal, and will bring down the wrathe of BiB should there be one about.
Once the full lane closure is in place, then the electric signage (Matrix & VMS) will be turned off, unless the area is of a particular dangerous nature, then limited signage may still be left in place.
When the roadworks crew are ready to lift the closure, the signals etc are put back on until all is clear, when the foreman off the crew will then ask for them to be turned off.
The electric signage is put on whilst the roadworks crew install the cones and hard signage, commonly known as a "Chapter 8" This is just like any other obstruction, or lane closure that you would come across, with a Red "X" over each closed lane, going through the red "X" is illegal, and will bring down the wrathe of BiB should there be one about.
Once the full lane closure is in place, then the electric signage (Matrix & VMS) will be turned off, unless the area is of a particular dangerous nature, then limited signage may still be left in place.
When the roadworks crew are ready to lift the closure, the signals etc are put back on until all is clear, when the foreman off the crew will then ask for them to be turned off.
Edited by gafferjim on Tuesday 1st August 16:54
gafferjim said:
Getting back to the original question.
snip 8< 8<
snip 8< 8<
Yes, but the original question was; what rules apply on the stretch of road with blank matrix signs between the location of the contractor lorry putting out signs and cones to the gantry showing the end / NSL matrix display?
Legally it could be argued that only lane 1 should be used and a 40 limit applied. Equally it could be argued from a common sense viewpoint that the road works restriction had ended for the couple of miles involved.
Flat in Fifth said:
gafferjim said:
Getting back to the original question.
snip 8< 8<
snip 8< 8<
Yes, but the original question was; what rules apply on the stretch of road with blank matrix signs between the location of the contractor lorry putting out signs and cones to the gantry showing the end / NSL matrix display?
Legally it could be argued that only lane 1 should be used and a 40 limit applied. Equally it could be argued from a common sense viewpoint that the road works restriction had ended for the couple of miles involved.
I don't think the matrix is illuminated progressively as per the OP. Signs would be set for the length of the roadworks.
If I go past the lorry dropping the cones and the road ahead is clear and there are no red X signs, I'll take whatever lane and speed is suitable. I'll be more vigillant than usual, but no one should be out working till the closure is complete.
You're talking a few minutes here while the closure is put on and all the signs are deployed. It's not physically possible to have the road works end/NSL sign out till the rest of it's done.
Well, that's my interpretation.
Vaux said:
Flat in Fifth said:
gafferjim said:
Getting back to the original question.
snip 8< 8<
snip 8< 8<
Yes, but the original question was; what rules apply on the stretch of road with blank matrix signs between the location of the contractor lorry putting out signs and cones to the gantry showing the end / NSL matrix display?
Legally it could be argued that only lane 1 should be used and a 40 limit applied. Equally it could be argued from a common sense viewpoint that the road works restriction had ended for the couple of miles involved.
I don't think the matrix is illuminated progressively as per the OP. Signs would be set for the length of the roadworks.
If I go past the lorry dropping the cones and the road ahead is clear and there are no red X signs, I'll take whatever lane and speed is suitable. I'll be more vigillant than usual, but no one should be out working till the closure is complete.
You're talking a few minutes here while the closure is put on and all the signs are deployed. It's not physically possible to have the road works end/NSL sign out till the rest of it's done.
Well, that's my interpretation.
Trust me on this vaux.
The situation was per OP, ie all signs in place right up to the lorry putting the cones etc out.
Immediately after the lorry the matrix signs were blank for two miles down road approx until the end signs were illuminated. It certainly had plenty of cones and signs left to deploy, well judging by what was still on board anyway.
Honestly I have no idea if the signs were actually being progressively lit with the progress of the contractor lorry. However I have seen progressive illumination of signs warning of a wide load following the progress of the load. That was M1 in Notts. Different kettle of fish I know, but illustrates that progressive illumination can be and is done.
I'd agree with your sensible approach ie adopt lane and speed suitable with radar on high alert.
Flat in Fifth said:
Immediately after the lorry the matrix signs were blank for two miles down road approx until the end signs were illuminated. It certainly had plenty of cones and signs left to deploy, well judging by what was still on board anyway.
Honestly I have no idea if the signs were actually being progressively lit with the progress of the contractor lorry. However I have seen progressive illumination of signs warning of a wide load following the progress of the load. That was M1 in Notts. Different kettle of fish I know, but illustrates that progressive illumination can be and is done.
I'd agree with your sensible approach ie adopt lane and speed suitable with radar on high alert.
Honestly I have no idea if the signs were actually being progressively lit with the progress of the contractor lorry. However I have seen progressive illumination of signs warning of a wide load following the progress of the load. That was M1 in Notts. Different kettle of fish I know, but illustrates that progressive illumination can be and is done.
I'd agree with your sensible approach ie adopt lane and speed suitable with radar on high alert.
Gafferjim had a good description. I would bet a pint that the signs are not progressively illuminated for roadworks. The timing would be a problem and once the lane is coned off and the physical lane closure signs are out, as Gafferjim said, the electronic signs are normally turned off anyway. And they don't necessarily have to deploy all the cones/signs they carry.
Were the speed reduction signs advisory or red-ring? If red-ring, then I think there is a problem - I would say legally you would have to carry on at that speed forever, as the End of Roadworks signs which imply back up to NSL would not be in place yet. If that makes sense.
Right here is what happened. Don't know how to explain this more clearly.
First signs were red ringed 60 limit across all three lanes.
Then red ringed 50 all lanes
Then red ringed 40 all lanes
Then red ringed 40 on lane 1 only , lanes 2 and 3 the arrow which instructs move to the lane to your left.
Then red ringed 40 lane 1, red cross lanes 2 & 3. I believe the red cross was illuminated on the hard shoulder too.
Several gantries like that and as originally said quite a few ignored the red cross.
Then the lane closure sign and cone set up commenced gradually closing off so just lane 1 was open. Each gantry still displayed red ringed 40 lane 1, lane 2 & 3 red cross. The closure was for quite some distance so quite a few gantries illuminated,
Then contractor lorry putting out cones.
Then blank gantries for some distance.
Then gantry displaying NSL signs.
Note:- Gantry immediately before lorry red ringed 40 lane 1, lanes 2 & 3 red cross, gantry immediately after lorry blank and so on for some distance till gantry NSL signs.
As I said earlier arguably the 40 and lane closure still applied.
First signs were red ringed 60 limit across all three lanes.
Then red ringed 50 all lanes
Then red ringed 40 all lanes
Then red ringed 40 on lane 1 only , lanes 2 and 3 the arrow which instructs move to the lane to your left.
Then red ringed 40 lane 1, red cross lanes 2 & 3. I believe the red cross was illuminated on the hard shoulder too.
Several gantries like that and as originally said quite a few ignored the red cross.
Then the lane closure sign and cone set up commenced gradually closing off so just lane 1 was open. Each gantry still displayed red ringed 40 lane 1, lane 2 & 3 red cross. The closure was for quite some distance so quite a few gantries illuminated,
Then contractor lorry putting out cones.
Then blank gantries for some distance.
Then gantry displaying NSL signs.
Note:- Gantry immediately before lorry red ringed 40 lane 1, lanes 2 & 3 red cross, gantry immediately after lorry blank and so on for some distance till gantry NSL signs.
As I said earlier arguably the 40 and lane closure still applied.
There was a case recently about shut lanes - on the M4 going into London, IIRC. I think the X means the lane is shut until you get to another sign/gantry saying it's open again.
Found it: www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=245626
Found it: www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=245626
Edited by SJobson on Wednesday 2nd August 12:27
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