Ryanair - Empty rows

[theboyfold]

I had the pleasure of a flight with Ryanair today, and asked the steward why they kept rows 3 and 4 empty. He explained that under 170(ish) passengers they leave them empty to give the plane better balance.

How much difference does it make? And why in rows 3 & 4?

I think the plane was a 737-800 if that makes any sense.

[rpguk]

I've wondered this before, even busy flights seem to have rows put out of use.

When I flew with them a few days ago and they went a step further and asked everyone who'd sat in rows up to row 6 and the last couple of rows to move seat (which I guess pissed off anyone who'd paid extra to board early to get seats together!) to help the balance of the plane.

I've not noticed it with other airlines, but I guess if they have allocated seats then I wouldn't. I wonder if it could in some way be related to them flying with very little hold baggage.

And out of interest, do they carry cargo in the spare hold space or just leave it empty?

[Hooli]

It makes sense as getting the plane balanced results in less trim deflection so the drag is lower which saves fuel.

[theboyfold]

How much difference does it make? I would have thought 12 people in the overall scheme of things would make very little difference to a plane of that size

[rpguk]

And that's before accounting for fatties and anorexics

[theboyfold]

Alex, that would make sense to what the steward said. He mentioned a figure of below 170 passengers, I think we had 140 on the plane. So I'm guessing they will do the same with cargo and stuff in the hold.

[Chuck328]

Yep, pretty accurate replies.

Too much weight forward or aft of a set datum and planes can become dangerous machines. Flights with low passenger numbers need to have folks well spread out to even the weight. As also said it reduces drag in flight if the weight is spread evenly (too much weight at the front means the aircraft has to add more pitch up to counter and vice versa.

These days laptop computers are used to calculate weight and balance but if the pax numbers are very low, it helps to have the cabin crew get everyone spread out.

HTH

[Regiment]

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

[Regiment]

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

[Regiment]

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

[Regiment]

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

[Regiment]

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

[Chuck328]

Regiment said:

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

For most aircraft fuel is stored in the wings and belly section so doesn't impact much on centre of gravity. I'm sure there are exceptions, IIRC Concorde used fuel to help trim during supersonic flight.

[eharding]

Chuck328 said:

For most aircraft fuel is stored in the wings and belly section so doesn't impact much on centre of gravity. I'm sure there are exceptions, IIRC Concorde used fuel to help trim during supersonic flight.

The QANTAS A380 incident shows one exception - they had lost control of the fuel transfer system, and the amount of fuel in the tail forced them to land sooner rather than later, as the CofG was going out of limits.

[Hooli]

Regiment said:

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

Regiment said:

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

Regiment said:

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

Regiment said:

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

Regiment said:

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

So that's how you get 61 posts in 1 month

Even if the fuel makes enough difference to trim when mostly in the wings surely having enough to adjust trim for the whole flight means carrying extra?

[Deva Link]

theboyfold said:

So I'm guessing they will do the same with cargo and stuff in the hold.

On a holiday flight a while ago, the plane was delayed leaving the gate and the captain came on and said they were having to move the baggage around "because of where we'd elected to sit"! Like we were given any choice in where we sat, and the plane was full anyway!

Chuck328 said:

Too much weight forward or aft of a set datum and planes can become dangerous machines. Flights with low passenger numbers need to have folks well spread out to even the weight.

Not a massive jetliner, but a mate of mine flys a Citation and he says it's vital for best "MPG" to get as much of the load as possible at the back to keep the nose up.

[IM NUTS2]

Yep it's for Added speed in boarding and also for the Weight and Balance of the Aircraft
Here's a breakdown

Rule 1: Mandatory: With 177 pax or less fwd rows 3 and 4 must be blocked
Rule 2: Optional: Both aft and fwd balance limits may be extended by 0,4 units for ZFW and TOW, provided:
a) No pax seated in the fwd 6 and aft 4 seat rows; maximum of 132 pax, or
b) 178 or more pax carried, or
c) Ferry flight (No pax)

I would say when i dispatch a Ryanair Rule 1 is used 95% of the time unless its was going to Belfast (they no longer fly to) with 20 passengers on then rule 2 would kick in if the aircraft wouldn't trim.

[IM NUTS2]

Regiment said:

I would have thought they'd have just moved the fuel between the tanks during flight, as it gets burned, to help balance out the plane?

Nope cant trim a 738 with fuel as its in the wings and center tank if the aircraft wouldn't trim on rule 2 we would add sand bags in the hold but I'm yet to see that happen.

[IM NUTS2]

Deva Link said:

Not a massive jetliner, but a mate of mine flys a Citation and he says it's vital for best "MPG" to get as much of the load as possible at the back to keep the nose up.

All planes fly and trim differently on a 738 the first 165 bags go in hold 2 at the front, 30 hold 1 and the remainder hold 3/4.

[IM NUTS2]

Chuck328 said:

These days laptop computers are used to calculate weight and balance but if the pax numbers are very low, it helps to have the cabin crew get everyone spread out.

Not on Ryanair i have a good old pen, paper and my brain (calculator!) to work the loading out. the dispacher will all ways fill out the loadsheet unless the aircraft have to divert to a non base airfield then the flight deck would do it.