Discussion
The oil is picked up be the scavenge pump from the oil pan on the bottom of the engine (where the sump would normally be). It's then pumped to the oil storage tank (via however many oil coolers you may have - I have 3).
From the storage tank, it's pumped back to the engine. It re-enters the engine through the oil filter return (asit would if you were fitting an oil cooler to an engine which didn't originally have one).
As for the size of tanks and plumbing, and the spec of the pump, that will be completely dependant on the oil requirements of the engine, so you'll have to ask a few BMW specialists about this bit.
I hope this helps you out a bit.
James
From the storage tank, it's pumped back to the engine. It re-enters the engine through the oil filter return (asit would if you were fitting an oil cooler to an engine which didn't originally have one).
As for the size of tanks and plumbing, and the spec of the pump, that will be completely dependant on the oil requirements of the engine, so you'll have to ask a few BMW specialists about this bit.
I hope this helps you out a bit.
James
Hi James
Thanks for the info it sounds prety interesting and simple
i was woried how to do it with the engine suply but if that goes via the oil filter conection that will be childs play as this car has a aux filter unit
but why do you use 3 oil coolers instead of one
also where to locate the Oil suply tank
i would prefer to locate that in the front (Nose section) to bring some weight to the front
about the oil capacity original the engine has 7 Liter of oil i think a thank cap of 25 to 30 liters would be suficient
cheers
steve
quote:
The oil is picked up be the scavenge pump from the oil pan on the bottom of the engine (where the sump would normally be). It's then pumped to the oil storage tank (via however many oil coolers you may have - I have 3).
From the storage tank, it's pumped back to the engine. It re-enters the engine through the oil filter return (asit would if you were fitting an oil cooler to an engine which didn't originally have one).
As for the size of tanks and plumbing, and the spec of the pump, that will be completely dependant on the oil requirements of the engine, so you'll have to ask a few BMW specialists about this bit.
I hope this helps you out a bit.
James
I use 3 oil coolers instead of one, because I couldn't get the temperature down low enough. The car originally had 2, one in each side pod. However, I had to put another one in there, just to try to get rid of some of the heat.
My oil tank is sited in one of the side pods, just in front of the rear wheel. I suppose that there's no reason why you couldn't put the tank in the front of the car (except for the cost of the long bits of Aeroquip hose). As usual, I would think a call to the boys at Ultima would be the best idea, as they probably know of people who have tried everything.
The oil capacity will depend entirely on the sizes of your coolers, tank and amount of hose you use, as well as the design of the sump pan. Remember that the amount of oil in the engine at any time will be a lot less than the original (as you won't have a sump full). My car takes more or less the same sort of quantity of oil that the original wet sumped engine would.
James
My oil tank is sited in one of the side pods, just in front of the rear wheel. I suppose that there's no reason why you couldn't put the tank in the front of the car (except for the cost of the long bits of Aeroquip hose). As usual, I would think a call to the boys at Ultima would be the best idea, as they probably know of people who have tried everything.
The oil capacity will depend entirely on the sizes of your coolers, tank and amount of hose you use, as well as the design of the sump pan. Remember that the amount of oil in the engine at any time will be a lot less than the original (as you won't have a sump full). My car takes more or less the same sort of quantity of oil that the original wet sumped engine would.
James
James
is see but about your oil capacity that is too low because on a 4 cyl engine the normal capacity used is 10 liter and someone told me between 4 to 5 times the engine displacement should be used for exemple
a engine with a displacement of 5.0 liter should use between 20 and 30 liter tank capacity when you go for
but i also recieved the info that the oil thank should be mounted higher than the engine
i hope that is not nesecary this would make mounting it in the front very difficuld as the nose is lower than the engine
I use 3 oil coolers instead of one, because I couldn't get the temperature down low enough. The car originally had 2, one in each side pod. However, I had to put another one in there, just to try to get rid of some of the heat.
My oil tank is sited in one of the side pods, just in front of the rear wheel. I suppose that there's no reason why you couldn't put the tank in the front of the car (except for the cost of the long bits of Aeroquip hose). As usual, I would think a call to the boys at Ultima would be the best idea, as they probably know of people who have tried everything.
The oil capacity will depend entirely on the sizes of your coolers, tank and amount of hose you use, as well as the design of the sump pan. Remember that the amount of oil in the engine at any time will be a lot less than the original (as you won't have a sump full). My car takes more or less the same sort of quantity of oil that the original wet sumped engine would.
James
Steve,
As I said, talk to the man who is building your engine. He'll tell you exactly how much oil to use.
I don't know where you got the figures for the amount of oil to use, but it does sound like quite a lot. The only places that you will have oil are in the engine oilways, the oil coolers and pipes, and the tank. Maybe you will use a particularly massive tank, I don't know. My engine takes a couple of gallons or so. Thinking about it, that's more than the wet sumped engine probably uses, but not by a factor of 4.
As for the height of the tank in relation to the engine. Mine is mounted at the same height as the engine. The oil is pumped into it from the engine, then out of it into the engine. I would guess that you wouldn't want the tank to be below the height of the engine, but I don't see that it would have to be above it either.
I didn't design the dry sump system for my engine. I just connected it up and poured oil in to the suggested level. As I said originally. The guy who is building your engine should be able to answer all of your questions. If he can't, I'd guess that you've got the wrong engine builder.
James
As I said, talk to the man who is building your engine. He'll tell you exactly how much oil to use.
I don't know where you got the figures for the amount of oil to use, but it does sound like quite a lot. The only places that you will have oil are in the engine oilways, the oil coolers and pipes, and the tank. Maybe you will use a particularly massive tank, I don't know. My engine takes a couple of gallons or so. Thinking about it, that's more than the wet sumped engine probably uses, but not by a factor of 4.
As for the height of the tank in relation to the engine. Mine is mounted at the same height as the engine. The oil is pumped into it from the engine, then out of it into the engine. I would guess that you wouldn't want the tank to be below the height of the engine, but I don't see that it would have to be above it either.
I didn't design the dry sump system for my engine. I just connected it up and poured oil in to the suggested level. As I said originally. The guy who is building your engine should be able to answer all of your questions. If he can't, I'd guess that you've got the wrong engine builder.
James
10 litres of oil in a 4 cylinder car???? I've never heard of that much. My 4 cylinder 2 litre cosworth turbo takes 3.7litres which I believe is about normal.
My V8 6.3 litre Ultima uses a winged wet sump with a 3 litre accusump (oil pressure back up) and that only!!! took 9 litres. I think its only about 4 litres for this engine without the special sumps.
I have to be honest that I thought dry sumps were designed to require less oil as there is less surge and oil is delivered were and when its needed rather than slopping around in a large sump?
James, the more I read, the more interested in your car I become, I look forward to seeing it in the person.
(what oil temp do you like to see on the track???).
My V8 6.3 litre Ultima uses a winged wet sump with a 3 litre accusump (oil pressure back up) and that only!!! took 9 litres. I think its only about 4 litres for this engine without the special sumps.
I have to be honest that I thought dry sumps were designed to require less oil as there is less surge and oil is delivered were and when its needed rather than slopping around in a large sump?
James, the more I read, the more interested in your car I become, I look forward to seeing it in the person.
(what oil temp do you like to see on the track???). Before I put on all of the cooling, it would hit 120C, and I'd have to back off.
Now it's generally down about 100. Still a bit higher than I'd really like, but it's manageable. I'm going to add some more ally ducting to guide the air to the most effective places over the next couple of weeks, so bythe time it's next outon the track, it should be completely under control.
I've provisionally booked on the Bookatrack track day at Rockingham on 25th Oct, so if you want to see it in its natural environment.....
James
Now it's generally down about 100. Still a bit higher than I'd really like, but it's manageable. I'm going to add some more ally ducting to guide the air to the most effective places over the next couple of weeks, so bythe time it's next outon the track, it should be completely under control.
I've provisionally booked on the Bookatrack track day at Rockingham on 25th Oct, so if you want to see it in its natural environment.....
James
Good job I asked, I saw 123 on the track but that is the hottest oil just before it commes out to the oil cooler.
I must admit it did drop down to 110 at some points around the track but generally was above 115.
Never seen more that 90 on the road which is why I asked!
Shame you can't make santa pod!
I must admit it did drop down to 110 at some points around the track but generally was above 115.
Never seen more that 90 on the road which is why I asked!
Shame you can't make santa pod!
Andy,
That's also the temperature that it is inside the engine. Once you get above 120, you should be very careful, as a lot of oils will start to break down when they get to that sort of temperature.
If the oil gets too hot, it also gets thin, and stops lubricating properly. If you have high oil temperature, you may find an oil pressure drop too. If that ever happens, stop immediately, as you could start doing some expensive damage to your engine.
Remember that oil also acts as a coolant in your engine (in fact, that's its main function). I would consider either increasing the size of your oil cooler, fitting an additional one, or fitting some ducting to get more air flow through your rad, oil cooler and engine bay.
I'd be interested to hear what your water temp was when the oil temp was so high.
The confined engine bay on the Ultima tends to cause cooling problems. When you see mine, you'll see the sort of lengths I've had to go to to get air into the engine bay, and improve cooling. I've cut holes in the bonnet to let the air out after it's been through the rad. I use the N/S side pod as a duct to take air from behind the front wheel into the engine compartment. I have ducts to guide air into the side intakes. I've cut holes in the rear deck, just behind the doors and put ducts on them to get more air in. There are 2 long slots above each manifold to try to get rid of hot air coming off them, and there are 2 big sections cut out below the rear spoiler to try to get rid of as much hot air as possible.
And it still runs hot on the track
James
That's also the temperature that it is inside the engine. Once you get above 120, you should be very careful, as a lot of oils will start to break down when they get to that sort of temperature.
If the oil gets too hot, it also gets thin, and stops lubricating properly. If you have high oil temperature, you may find an oil pressure drop too. If that ever happens, stop immediately, as you could start doing some expensive damage to your engine.
Remember that oil also acts as a coolant in your engine (in fact, that's its main function). I would consider either increasing the size of your oil cooler, fitting an additional one, or fitting some ducting to get more air flow through your rad, oil cooler and engine bay.
I'd be interested to hear what your water temp was when the oil temp was so high.
The confined engine bay on the Ultima tends to cause cooling problems. When you see mine, you'll see the sort of lengths I've had to go to to get air into the engine bay, and improve cooling. I've cut holes in the bonnet to let the air out after it's been through the rad. I use the N/S side pod as a duct to take air from behind the front wheel into the engine compartment. I have ducts to guide air into the side intakes. I've cut holes in the rear deck, just behind the doors and put ducts on them to get more air in. There are 2 long slots above each manifold to try to get rid of hot air coming off them, and there are 2 big sections cut out below the rear spoiler to try to get rid of as much hot air as possible.
And it still runs hot on the track
James
Water temperature never got as high as 100 in fact I don't think it even came near. Also the oil pressure was around 60psi and never below 50, which is why I was not that concerned on track.
But then I didn't know the desirable temperature for the oil!
Adding the oil cooler made a huge difference to the running water temp and the oil pressure on tickover.
I wonder how many other Ultimas know what oil temp they run and if they also get this hot as I havn't reen many with oil temp fitted.
But then I didn't know the desirable temperature for the oil!
Adding the oil cooler made a huge difference to the running water temp and the oil pressure on tickover.
I wonder how many other Ultimas know what oil temp they run and if they also get this hot as I havn't reen many with oil temp fitted.
I suppose a lot of people assume that oil temp will be the same as water temp. I've always put oil temp sensors on my race cars, but none of my road cars have ever had it, and I've never been fussed enough to retro fit one.
It's another readout to have on the dash, if nothing else
James
It's another readout to have on the dash, if nothing else
James
Can you set warning levels on the parameters you aren't currently watching? That feature is quite handy, as Sods law states that it's always the thing that you aren't watching that goes crazy
I have my Astratech configured to show me a bar graph with all of my readings on all the time. It doesn't display the actual figures (although it logs them), but the max and min values for each graph are the alarm levels.
I could have it showing the actual values of each parameter, but I prefer to just be able to glance at the level to see where it is in relation to the damger levels, than have to interpret a digital readout.
There's also a big red light that flashes when a trigger level is reached. That's kind of useful too.
James
I have my Astratech configured to show me a bar graph with all of my readings on all the time. It doesn't display the actual figures (although it logs them), but the max and min values for each graph are the alarm levels.
I could have it showing the actual values of each parameter, but I prefer to just be able to glance at the level to see where it is in relation to the damger levels, than have to interpret a digital readout.
There's also a big red light that flashes when a trigger level is reached. That's kind of useful too.
James
quote:
Can you set warning levels on the parameters you aren't currently watching? That feature is quite handy, as Sods law states that it's always the thing that you aren't watching that goes crazy
Yep... I set in the Stipt RPM, high water temp, low oil pressure etc.... I can only dispay two at a time but if any are reached it flashes a light a buzzer sounds and it dispays the fault and reading... bloody good actually. Its all in front of me as well and speed is always displayed.
I also have lap timing, fuel level and air temp mounted in rear with engine.
I doesn't have a warning for speed though, but that would be pointless. Only danger is it has tell tales and I think speed is one of them!
By the way I spoke to the factory who said 120 wasn't a problem for oil temp and 130 is the worry threshold. Reading up on my chevy book 120C is about 235F and this is around the temp limit for mineral oil but 300F+ is Ok for synthetic. It claims an engine will produce more power in these conditions though.
Think I will keep an eye on it though as 110 seems to be the preferable HP/protection trade off for my engine.
The one thing I don't have is a fuel level indication. My 100 litre bag tank doesn't have a sender in it, and there's no way to get one in with all of the foam inside it.
Still, I haven't run out of fuel in a race yet, and on the road I'll just have to keep track of my trip distance, and carry a fuel can
Interesting to hear about your conversation with the factory. I've always been told to be careful if the oil temp goes over 120, so with the 130 point for mineral oil breaking down it's probably about right.
James
James
Still, I haven't run out of fuel in a race yet, and on the road I'll just have to keep track of my trip distance, and carry a fuel can
Interesting to hear about your conversation with the factory. I've always been told to be careful if the oil temp goes over 120, so with the 130 point for mineral oil breaking down it's probably about right.
James
James
I'm not an expert, but according to Smokey Yunick. In race conditions, oil temp for mineral-based oils in a smallblock chevy should be between 110-130. It should never exceed 140. 104 is too cool, and you should block off part of your oil cooler. Optimum oil pressure is 10lbs for every 1000rpm, but 75 psi is the upper limit at 7500rpm. A well prepared Chevy will run all day long at 7500rpm at 55psi, but its not advisable. Water temp is another story. Again, Smokey's book recommends running at least in the range of 93.33-98.88, and 104.44 is the max limit and you should have at least 25lbs of pressure in the system. Hope this helps.
Cheers!
-Mack
Cheers!
-Mack
quote:
Interesting to hear about your conversation with the factory. I've always been told to be careful if the oil temp goes over 120, so with the 130 point for mineral oil breaking down it's probably about right.
I think I'll live with the warning set at 120 as 130+ is the break down point and whilst this may produce more power in my chevy, I would rather have the protection.
Also with 526bhp I don't think I need these extra couple of hp.
You need to be careful if applying this therory to your rover as we have both been quoting Yank books on the chevy.
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