Bombardier bounce back
Discussion
andymadmak said:
Bombardier must have done something about the quality of their bid tenders then.. oh and their product quality / reliability, oh and their ability to deliver to the agreed deadline, not to mention to a competitive price.....
I think, if you dig a bit deeper you'll find it's all smoke and mirrors. A coincidence that they won this bid just after losing the previous biggie to Siemens? nah, it's too small a club now with very few customers and suppliers.
k it all by calling for a strike.Oakey said:
I think what Apache is saying is that one company gets one contract, then the other company gets the next and so on and so forth
more or less, it's true Bombardier are Canadian but they are a large employer in the UK and their customer needs a certain number of manufacturers to compete to their advantage. The same can be said for Seimens, Hitachi and Alstom. In a way it's a symbiotic relationship Cupramax said:
I dont understand the big deal, aren't Bombardier Canadian? I realise they build the trains over hear but its still not going to a british company in the end...
Its simple really, taxpayers money goes to maintain British jobs the pay tax directly and indirectly back to the government, instead of to German jobs that do not,also if they do not get the work they end up on the dole costing money, so all our taxes have to go up to compensate.
Cupramax said:
I dont understand the big deal, aren't Bombardier Canadian? I realise they build the trains over hear but its still not going to a british company in the end...
I'll speak slowly so you understand. Lets say that they dont win any more contrcts, close the facility and retreat back to Canada.That'll be 3000 people now in unemployment. 3000 more asking for unemployment benefit. Thats what, £67 a month. Each. So thats £2.4 million leaving the treasury every year. Of our money. Which could be spent on roads.
Or, lets say we encourage foreign busineses to invest in the UK. Yes the "profits" go back to their country. BUT 3000 people, with an average salary of, say £25k. Thats £75 million going into their pockets. Into the local businesses. The shops, bars, restaurants etc etc.
Tax is a big chunk of that of course- almost £17m in tax and NI. So by keeping this "foreign" company in the UK we are "up" by £14.6m in tax revenues each year. Then there is the other tax those employers will pay- fuel duty getting to and from work, vat on that, plus with the cash in their pockets, they are likely to spend more, giving more tax income for the UK
Then the business themselves will pay corporation tax on any profits made. Plus buisness rates to the local authorities for any buildings they occupy. Then there is the work they will do for local schools and charities etc etc
Can you see why its a good idea to get foreign investment into the UK?
And I havent even got onto the engineering skills which will be lost. The apprentership schemes, the...
It's a big part Wills but not the whole story.
The customer is, eventually, Network Rail who relies on funding from the Govt via the DoT. The Rail industry is a legislative and litigious nightmare so it pays, literally, to have a fine balance of companies that understand the customers requirements, legal obstructions and long term support needs as well as keeping a healthy balance in competitive terms. This, coupled with the points made previously, helps explain why an 'obvious' contract award goes awry.
The customer is, eventually, Network Rail who relies on funding from the Govt via the DoT. The Rail industry is a legislative and litigious nightmare so it pays, literally, to have a fine balance of companies that understand the customers requirements, legal obstructions and long term support needs as well as keeping a healthy balance in competitive terms. This, coupled with the points made previously, helps explain why an 'obvious' contract award goes awry.
Edited by Apache on Wednesday 28th December 15:04
Apache said:
It's a big part Wills but not the whole story.
The customer is, eventually, National Rail who relies on funding from the Govt. The Rail industry is a legislative and litigious nightmare so it pays, literally, to have a fine balance of companies that understand the customers requirements, legal obstructions and long term support needs as well as keeping a healthy balance in competitive terms. This, coupled with the points made previously, helps explain why an 'obvious' contract award goes awry.
I agree to a point, but do Bombardier win contracts in Germany and France and if not why not, if it is important for every government to maintain a balance. The customer is, eventually, National Rail who relies on funding from the Govt. The Rail industry is a legislative and litigious nightmare so it pays, literally, to have a fine balance of companies that understand the customers requirements, legal obstructions and long term support needs as well as keeping a healthy balance in competitive terms. This, coupled with the points made previously, helps explain why an 'obvious' contract award goes awry.
Sort of, for instance, Pendalinos are built in Italy for Alstom and operated by Virgin Uk. The Meridians were built in Brugges for Bombardier and operated by London Midland. All across Europe you will see a variety of rolling stock from other countries. The same can be said for various items of infrastructure such as signalling and points etc-
Apache said:
Sort of, for instance, Pendalinos are built in Italy for Alstom and operated by Virgin Uk. The Meridians were built in Brugges for Bombardier and operated by London Midland. All across Europe you will see a variety of rolling stock from other countries. The same can be said for various items of infrastructure such as signalling and points etc-
The examples you give are still UK using foreign built rolling stock, not British built rolling stock on foreign tracks, I would be interested to know the number of British built trains on German, French or Italian tracks, my guess would be next to none. 
williamp said:
I'll speak slowly so you understand. Lets say that they dont win any more contrcts, close the facility and retreat back to Canada.
That'll be 3000 people now in unemployment. 3000 more asking for unemployment benefit. Thats what, £67 a month. Each. So thats £2.4 million leaving the treasury every year. Of our money. Which could be spent on roads.
Or, lets say we encourage foreign busineses to invest in the UK. Yes the "profits" go back to their country. BUT 3000 people, with an average salary of, say £25k. Thats £75 million going into their pockets. Into the local businesses. The shops, bars, restaurants etc etc.
Tax is a big chunk of that of course- almost £17m in tax and NI. So by keeping this "foreign" company in the UK we are "up" by £14.6m in tax revenues each year. Then there is the other tax those employers will pay- fuel duty getting to and from work, vat on that, plus with the cash in their pockets, they are likely to spend more, giving more tax income for the UK
Thanks for your insight, pity you felt the need to be a patronising c0ck end. That'll be 3000 people now in unemployment. 3000 more asking for unemployment benefit. Thats what, £67 a month. Each. So thats £2.4 million leaving the treasury every year. Of our money. Which could be spent on roads.
Or, lets say we encourage foreign busineses to invest in the UK. Yes the "profits" go back to their country. BUT 3000 people, with an average salary of, say £25k. Thats £75 million going into their pockets. Into the local businesses. The shops, bars, restaurants etc etc.
Tax is a big chunk of that of course- almost £17m in tax and NI. So by keeping this "foreign" company in the UK we are "up" by £14.6m in tax revenues each year. Then there is the other tax those employers will pay- fuel duty getting to and from work, vat on that, plus with the cash in their pockets, they are likely to spend more, giving more tax income for the UK
PRTVR said:
Apache said:
Sort of, for instance, Pendalinos are built in Italy for Alstom and operated by Virgin Uk. The Meridians were built in Brugges for Bombardier and operated by London Midland. All across Europe you will see a variety of rolling stock from other countries. The same can be said for various items of infrastructure such as signalling and points etc-
The examples you give are still UK using foreign built rolling stock, not British built rolling stock on foreign tracks, I would be interested to know the number of British built trains on German, French or Italian tracks, my guess would be next to none. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BREL
PRTVR said:
The examples you give are still UK using foreign built rolling stock, not British built rolling stock on foreign tracks, I would be interested to know the number of British built trains on German, French or Italian tracks, my guess would be next to none.
Perhaps sometimes other companies prices are cheaper, quality is better etc rather than "bloody foreigners" taking our jobs?Apache said:
Ah I see, you think the UK is missing out on it's share of rolling stock production in Europe. Well, we only really have Bombardier in Derby now which produces enough to keep afloat, just, I guess you can see why from this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BREL
I just think our last plant should be supported,as every other country does,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BREL
I have had an interest in the railways from the late 60's and witnessed the closure of many a works, If every country was working to the same rules it would be great,but they do not, they protect their own industries.
but if we carry on giving work away, our last plant will close, I see no advantage in that happening.
On a brighter note it looks like Hitachi will be building trains in the north east, so perhaps we will end up with two train works.
PRTVR said:
Apache said:
Ah I see, you think the UK is missing out on it's share of rolling stock production in Europe. Well, we only really have Bombardier in Derby now which produces enough to keep afloat, just, I guess you can see why from this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BREL
I just think our last plant should be supported,as every other country does,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BREL
I have had an interest in the railways from the late 60's and witnessed the closure of many a works, If every country was working to the same rules it would be great,but they do not, they protect their own industries.
but if we carry on giving work away, our last plant will close, I see no advantage in that happening.
On a brighter note it looks like Hitachi will be building trains in the north east, so perhaps we will end up with two train works.
One thing to bear in mind is the ongoing support that rolling stock requires, it's potentially a bigger earner than the initial build and the Hitachi contract for this will be a nice little earner
Kudos said:
Perhaps sometimes other companies prices are cheaper, quality is better etc rather than "bloody foreigners" taking our jobs?
But what if the price is artificially low to get the work and so shut down the opposition? then you have to use them next time at what ever price they say, unit price may be cheaper, but if you factor in the cost of lost jobs the price will look very different.This was a done deal from the moment Southern decided it needed more trains, the only issue was who would pay. With the vast majority of their existing fleet also Bombardier (nee Adtranz) Electrostars for the necessary compatibility, the only train that could be ordered was the Electrostar.
Southern knew that as the Government was on the back foot, and the current franchise almost complete, it had an opportunity to drive a better deal, so a game of cat and mouse has been going on for a few months.
It's great new for Litchurch Lane and the folks who work there, but it's not the Pheonix rising from the ashes. That'll be if they win either Crossrail and/or future TfL orders and they aren't done deals even if, currently, the ref is on their side.
Southern knew that as the Government was on the back foot, and the current franchise almost complete, it had an opportunity to drive a better deal, so a game of cat and mouse has been going on for a few months.
It's great new for Litchurch Lane and the folks who work there, but it's not the Pheonix rising from the ashes. That'll be if they win either Crossrail and/or future TfL orders and they aren't done deals even if, currently, the ref is on their side.
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