Fans blamed in Hillsborough files
Discussion
"Former PM Margaret Thatcher was told a senior Merseyside police officer blamed "drunken Liverpool fans" for causing the Hillsborough disaster, confidential government documents reveal"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896
The World at One on Radio 4 has just spent the first 20 minutes of it's program reporting on this. It's hardly a revelation that some in the south yorks police tried to blame the fans, and it can't be a total shock that one of their colleagues on merseyside sided with them. The take on the story seemed to be basically that Thatcher had probably read the letter and could well have underlined the words 'drunken fans', they seemed to me to be trying to infer that having done this she shared his opinion.
chris watton said:
What the hell is the point on reporting on this now, after so long, surely it achieves nothing aside from re-opening old wounds!
The families groups and other campaigning groups have been pushing tirelessly for their own old wounds to be reopened since the trafic day itself. I'd say they have a better right to know if they want their wounds reopened than you or I do.If the truth had been told and released nearer the time you and I wouldn't be troubled with such releases today.
Essentially the Fans Killed and maimed are entirely blameless and My sympathies have been with them from the start. The actions of a certain mass of fans who arrived late and were either drunk or just determined to get in and damn the consequences, led to the deaths. On that basis the Police had to cope with a situation where lives were going to be lost. They panicked and made the wrong decision. The problem the victims families have is that those who caused the problem in the first place were never perused and the Police take all the blame. Those pushing and shouting to be let in caused the initial problem and should have been found and prosecuted as well as the Officers in charge. That whole generation of "fans" whose motive's were never the Football cost people lives not only here but at other grounds as well. It's a shame some of Europe still seem to have that kind of "fan".
I stood on that Leppings Lane terrace back in January 1988. I considered the place, putting it politely, a dump. The away end at Southampton was equally so. The FA were at fault for selecting this venue for a cup semi-final anyway! Poland and the USSR seem to have a serious issue with football holliganism right now!
chris watton said:
What the hell is the point on reporting on this now, after so long, surely it achieves nothing aside from re-opening old wounds!
Quite a vociferous Hillsborough justice group looking to find "the truth" and bring to justice those accountable. Ie the police and the ground's stewards In answer to one poster, this story has resurfaced because the papers surrounding the tragedy are finally being made public, there will be full disclosure later this year apparently, maybe out of respect to all involved, it would be better if people didn't enlighten us all with their insight into the cause until all the information is in the public domain, then again!
telecat said:
Essentially the Fans Killed and maimed are entirely blameless and My sympathies have been with them from the start. The actions of a certain mass of fans who arrived late and were either drunk or just determined to get in and damn the consequences, led to the deaths. On that basis the Police had to cope with a situation where lives were going to be lost. They panicked and made the wrong decision. The problem the victims families have is that those who caused the problem in the first place were never perused and the Police take all the blame. Those pushing and shouting to be let in caused the initial problem and should have been found and prosecuted as well as the Officers in charge. That whole generation of "fans" whose motive's were never the Football cost people lives not only here but at other grounds as well. It's a shame some of Europe still seem to have that kind of "fan".
This. It really grates that the activists seeking justice exonerate the fans of Liverpool FC of blame in their entirety. Of course the police and match day officials must take their fair share of the blame, but to suggest that the fans pushing into the ground without tickets are blameless is ridiculous. I really do hope a just and honest conclusion to this whole affair can be found, but unfortunately the perpetual victim complex suffered by Liverpool fans will prevent this from ever happening.
Blue62 said:
In answer to one poster, this story has resurfaced because the papers surrounding the tragedy are finally being made public, there will be full disclosure later this year apparently, maybe out of respect to all involved, it would be better if people didn't enlighten us all with their insight into the cause until all the information is in the public domain, then again!
Which is a little bit hard because the BBC is stuffed to the gunwhales with scousers and their "insights".Strange how some files have been leaked first - which blame the fans.
Wiki said:
The Taylor inquiry
Following the disaster, Lord Justice Taylor was appointed to conduct an inquiry into the disaster. Taylor's inquiry sat for 31 days and published two reports, one interim report that laid out the events of the day and immediate conclusions and one final report that made general recommendations on football ground safety. This became known as the Taylor Report.[24] As a result of the report, fences in front of fans were removed and many of the top stadiums were converted to become all-seated.[25]
Police control
The Taylor report found in its concluding chapters that "policing on 15 April broke down in the ways already described and, although there were other causes, the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control."[26] There was considerable debate over some aspects of the disaster; in particular, attention was focused on the decision to open the secondary gates. It was suggested that it would have been better to delay the start of the match as had often been done at other venues and matches. In defence, the police pointed out that the crush outside the stadium was getting out of control.
Stadium design
Although it was noted that Hillsborough was considered "one of the best in the country" , Sheffield Wednesday were criticised for the low number of turnstiles at the Leppings Lane End and the poor quality of the crush barriers on the terraces there. However, the Taylor Report stated that the official cause of the disaster was the failure of police control. Due to the low number of turnstiles, it has been estimated that it would have taken until 3:40 pm to get all ticket holders into the Leppings Lane End had an exit gate not been opened. Gate C was opened to let more fans in, but the total number of fans entering the terrace is not thought to have been more than the capacity of the standing area.
The disaster happened because most of the fans entering the terraces headed for the central pens 3 and 4 as directed by the large notice pointing them that way above the tunnel. Normally a police officer or steward would direct fans away from full pens, but on that day this did not happen. There were no stewards in that area at all. The official capacity of these pens was around 2,000, but the Health and Safety Executive later found that this should have been reduced to around 1,600 as the crush barriers did not conform to the Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds 1986. It is estimated that more than 3,000 people were in these pens shortly after kick off at 3:00 pm. This overcrowding caused the fatal crush.[27][28]
Other aggravating factors
There were accusations that the behaviour of the Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster. These centered around consumption of alcohol before the game and attempts to enter the ground without a ticket. Although Lord Taylor acknowledged that these aggravated the situation, they were only secondary factors.
Witness estimates of the number of fans who were drunk varied from a minority to a large proportion of the crowd. Although it was clear that many fans had been drinking, Lord Taylor unequivocally stated that most of them were: "not drunk, nor even the worse for drink". He concluded that they only formed an exacerbating factor.
The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forgeries contributing to the disaster was also suggested. South Yorkshire Police also suggested that the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy in order to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand. Additionally, eye witness reports suggested that tickets were easily available on the day of the game, and that tickets for the Leppings Lane End were still on sale from Anfield until the day before the game. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory.
Following the disaster, Lord Justice Taylor was appointed to conduct an inquiry into the disaster. Taylor's inquiry sat for 31 days and published two reports, one interim report that laid out the events of the day and immediate conclusions and one final report that made general recommendations on football ground safety. This became known as the Taylor Report.[24] As a result of the report, fences in front of fans were removed and many of the top stadiums were converted to become all-seated.[25]
Police control
The Taylor report found in its concluding chapters that "policing on 15 April broke down in the ways already described and, although there were other causes, the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control."[26] There was considerable debate over some aspects of the disaster; in particular, attention was focused on the decision to open the secondary gates. It was suggested that it would have been better to delay the start of the match as had often been done at other venues and matches. In defence, the police pointed out that the crush outside the stadium was getting out of control.
Stadium design
Although it was noted that Hillsborough was considered "one of the best in the country" , Sheffield Wednesday were criticised for the low number of turnstiles at the Leppings Lane End and the poor quality of the crush barriers on the terraces there. However, the Taylor Report stated that the official cause of the disaster was the failure of police control. Due to the low number of turnstiles, it has been estimated that it would have taken until 3:40 pm to get all ticket holders into the Leppings Lane End had an exit gate not been opened. Gate C was opened to let more fans in, but the total number of fans entering the terrace is not thought to have been more than the capacity of the standing area.
The disaster happened because most of the fans entering the terraces headed for the central pens 3 and 4 as directed by the large notice pointing them that way above the tunnel. Normally a police officer or steward would direct fans away from full pens, but on that day this did not happen. There were no stewards in that area at all. The official capacity of these pens was around 2,000, but the Health and Safety Executive later found that this should have been reduced to around 1,600 as the crush barriers did not conform to the Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds 1986. It is estimated that more than 3,000 people were in these pens shortly after kick off at 3:00 pm. This overcrowding caused the fatal crush.[27][28]
Other aggravating factors
There were accusations that the behaviour of the Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster. These centered around consumption of alcohol before the game and attempts to enter the ground without a ticket. Although Lord Taylor acknowledged that these aggravated the situation, they were only secondary factors.
Witness estimates of the number of fans who were drunk varied from a minority to a large proportion of the crowd. Although it was clear that many fans had been drinking, Lord Taylor unequivocally stated that most of them were: "not drunk, nor even the worse for drink". He concluded that they only formed an exacerbating factor.
The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forgeries contributing to the disaster was also suggested. South Yorkshire Police also suggested that the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy in order to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand. Additionally, eye witness reports suggested that tickets were easily available on the day of the game, and that tickets for the Leppings Lane End were still on sale from Anfield until the day before the game. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory.
I've just been listening to some northern woman being interviewed on Radio4 WATO who was ranting on about how it was all the fault of Maggie and how her party ground the country into the dirt and encouraged racism and all sorts of things, so really it was Mrs Thatcher and the tories who were to blame. As usual on the BBC, the rant went entirely unchallenged. . . .
Caulkhead said:
I've just been listening to some northern woman being interviewed on Radio4 WATO who was ranting on about how it was all the fault of Maggie and how her party ground the country into the dirt and encouraged racism and all sorts of things, so really it was Mrs Thatcher and the tories who were to blame. As usual on the BBC, the rant went entirely unchallenged. . . .
I think she's the spokeswoman on the victims. She's like a walking Labour cliche which distracts hugely from whatever message she's trying to get over.Whilst the Taylor report was heavily criticised, and from all sides, there seems little doubt that the main cause of the disaster was three-fold: the design of the stadium, the conduct of the fans allied with a decision to open the second gate.
The use of fencing was as a result of problems that preceded the disaster. Whilst many people said after the incidnet that it was a 'ticking time bomb' and other cliches, it seems unfortunate that these concerns were not raised before the disaster with any degree of force.
The decision to open the second gate was an operational one. It was the sort of thing that police officers do on a daily basis. Whilst it did allow 'too many' spectators into the pitch near the start time, it was quite reasonable given the problem outside. It did not occur to the OIC that such a result was possible. Why should it? Such a thing hadn't happened before. It was unique.
The main cause was obviously the crush of the fans. If the secondary gate had not been opened it would have delayed the crush and given more time to stop it. There is no doubt that there was a crush of fans who were trying to get in late without tickets. That's what used to happen at football matches in those days.
The idea of blame on one particular person is nonsensical. If the requirement to have the fencing put up then there would have been more fights, more pitch invasions, more problems. If the police hadn't opened the gate there would have been a crush outside and probably some people would have been injured and maybe even killed. The fans' behaviour was normal. So were the fans who tried to get into other matches at the time at fault?
From the reports that I read the police behaved very well once the problems were recognised. But that was too late for many. I read an ambulance report which praised the police highly. It was presented to Taylor but I've never been able to find it on the disclosed info. Perhaps now we'll see it. Mind you I wouldn't bet on it.
It's this blame thing. Sometimes things just happen and it is unfortunate that you cannot hang anyone for it.
Thee was a bit on Sky about the Korean aircrash in 1999. I was at Gatwick at the time in charge of aircrash, or rather major incicent, and as the first, and only, major crash in the UK while I was there it was rather important. The AAIB route in their enquiry was not to blame but to stop it happening again. There were a nubmer of causes, including poor maintenance, but the result of the AAIB's actions was to turn Korean Air from one of the worst accident records at the time to one of the best - I don't thing they have had a crash since or even a serious injury.
That's what our enquiries should do. Not political people being put in charge of enquiries, their function to blame and take pressure from the government, who were the instigators of the fencing of course. We should have enquiries just to find out how to stop such things happening again.
It doesn't lessen the tragedy when the finger is pointed at a particular person.
The use of fencing was as a result of problems that preceded the disaster. Whilst many people said after the incidnet that it was a 'ticking time bomb' and other cliches, it seems unfortunate that these concerns were not raised before the disaster with any degree of force.
The decision to open the second gate was an operational one. It was the sort of thing that police officers do on a daily basis. Whilst it did allow 'too many' spectators into the pitch near the start time, it was quite reasonable given the problem outside. It did not occur to the OIC that such a result was possible. Why should it? Such a thing hadn't happened before. It was unique.
The main cause was obviously the crush of the fans. If the secondary gate had not been opened it would have delayed the crush and given more time to stop it. There is no doubt that there was a crush of fans who were trying to get in late without tickets. That's what used to happen at football matches in those days.
The idea of blame on one particular person is nonsensical. If the requirement to have the fencing put up then there would have been more fights, more pitch invasions, more problems. If the police hadn't opened the gate there would have been a crush outside and probably some people would have been injured and maybe even killed. The fans' behaviour was normal. So were the fans who tried to get into other matches at the time at fault?
From the reports that I read the police behaved very well once the problems were recognised. But that was too late for many. I read an ambulance report which praised the police highly. It was presented to Taylor but I've never been able to find it on the disclosed info. Perhaps now we'll see it. Mind you I wouldn't bet on it.
It's this blame thing. Sometimes things just happen and it is unfortunate that you cannot hang anyone for it.
Thee was a bit on Sky about the Korean aircrash in 1999. I was at Gatwick at the time in charge of aircrash, or rather major incicent, and as the first, and only, major crash in the UK while I was there it was rather important. The AAIB route in their enquiry was not to blame but to stop it happening again. There were a nubmer of causes, including poor maintenance, but the result of the AAIB's actions was to turn Korean Air from one of the worst accident records at the time to one of the best - I don't thing they have had a crash since or even a serious injury.
That's what our enquiries should do. Not political people being put in charge of enquiries, their function to blame and take pressure from the government, who were the instigators of the fencing of course. We should have enquiries just to find out how to stop such things happening again.
It doesn't lessen the tragedy when the finger is pointed at a particular person.
Blue62 said:
gtdc said:
Which is a little bit hard because the BBC is stuffed to the gunwhales with scousers and their "insights".
Even by the general standards on here that one's a bit OTT, where do you get your information from?The woman got her own slot at lunchtime on radio 4 and spent ages in an anti Thatcher rant that seemed to end up having bugger all to do with the matter under discussion.
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