Any structural engineers?
Discussion
We have a large barn we are going to be converting into a house. It's 10meters by 17 meters, stone built with stone rubble walls 700mm thick. I asked the builder who's going to be doing the work with us what he thought the chances of having the first floor spanning the 10 meters with no supports using either gluelam beams or some form of light weight steel. He spoke to his materials supplier who said that sort of span isn't possible as the stone walls won't stand the weight or they will belly. I am having trouble believing this as the roof sits higher up and there is evidence of the old floor that fell down in a fire 80 yeas ago.
We have to use an architect to have plans drawn up because of the area we live in, I would like a 2nd opinion before we visit them so we know what our options are.
Main reason for wanting a light weight solution is logistically access to half of the building from outside is not possible, it's joined by neighbours on one side and our current house on the other.
We have to use an architect to have plans drawn up because of the area we live in, I would like a 2nd opinion before we visit them so we know what our options are.
Main reason for wanting a light weight solution is logistically access to half of the building from outside is not possible, it's joined by neighbours on one side and our current house on the other.
Is it an option to build a steel structure within the barn if the walls won't take the weight of the beams? You'd have to box in the supporting columns though and it may look s
t? Also you'd need to build some concrete pads in the barn to carry the columns.
Maybe forget that idea, sounds expensive!
t? Also you'd need to build some concrete pads in the barn to carry the columns.Maybe forget that idea, sounds expensive!
Yes, in very un-Pistonheads fashion we're having to be very very budget concious. If I was going to build a steel structure I could just build a 2nd skin of concrete block inside to support the floor. My original plan was to build a load bearing wall half way down the middle, have a lintel over to a pillar and another into the far end wall, basically bisecting the barn and reducing the span to 5m. Doing it this way would be cheaper and easy but will restrict layout.
There is a very good concrete floor but I don't know exactly how thick it is.
I'll try to get some pictures up when I get back on my main pc.
Someone would need to check the construction of the walls as they may need tieing/reinforcing/rebuilding locally. The span is no problem in steel. The connection would also need careful consideration not so much to take the weight but to ensure lateral stability, ie that the building doesn't topple over like dominoes though with the pressure from that span you should be OK with some divviding walls or a goal post.
http://glulambeams.co.uk/about-glulam/specificatio...
A quick look at the above would seem to suggest that a 24" x 4" beam at 3.5m c/c would suffice.
A quick look at the above would seem to suggest that a 24" x 4" beam at 3.5m c/c would suffice.
Edited by TA14 on Wednesday 25th January 23:58
TA14 said:
http://glulambeams.co.uk/about-glulam/specificatio...
A quick look at the above would seem to suggest that a 16" x 4" beam at 5m c/c would suffice.
No it doesn't, those are total loads in tonnes so you'd need a 16x4 beam at about 700mm centres. A steel frame would be much cheaper. A quick look at the above would seem to suggest that a 16" x 4" beam at 5m c/c would suffice.
Plus if access is an issue, how much would those glulams weigh?
I am undertaking a similar project in a 600 year old stone barn. Length 20m x 8.5m wide with walls approx. 1m thick. I have removed a floor that was added in Victorian times - the joists were 11 x 3 inches and were very solid in spanning the 8.5m. However I have put a steel frame in the barn as mentioned in previous threads to take the new construction. The steel frame sits on 9 x concrete pads (all various sizes but in the 0.75m x 0.75m x 0.75m area). The steel frame was erected in one day and was cheaper than you might have thought. It will need to be fireproofed to meet building regs so consider this. You are welcome to see what I'm up to (North Oxfordshire)
Thanks to all for the advice and Topolino for your kind offer.
I'm in France and as such we don't have building regs here. However, if your construction is over 150m2 (used to be 170m2) you need to get an architect involved so we will have to employ one but I'm not sure how far into the engineering side of things they go to here. Also being in France steel is really expensive and generally not of the highest standard.
I'm in France and as such we don't have building regs here. However, if your construction is over 150m2 (used to be 170m2) you need to get an architect involved so we will have to employ one but I'm not sure how far into the engineering side of things they go to here. Also being in France steel is really expensive and generally not of the highest standard.
Had a quick run through a Glulam calculation for you. In outright strength a 120 wide by 450 deep glulam would work at 1m centres spanning 10m. However, with would deflect nearly 29mm, and UK Building Regs set a limit of 14mm deflection on domestic floor elements. Each one would weigh 280 kg or so as well.
To get the deflection within UK limits you'd need a 150x540 beam, weighing 405kg...
To get the deflection within UK limits you'd need a 150x540 beam, weighing 405kg...
What sort of price did the whole steel structure come in at installed?. (If you don't mind sharing).
topolino37 said:
I am undertaking a similar project in a 600 year old stone barn. Length 20m x 8.5m wide with walls approx. 1m thick. I have removed a floor that was added in Victorian times - the joists were 11 x 3 inches and were very solid in spanning the 8.5m. However I have put a steel frame in the barn as mentioned in previous threads to take the new construction. The steel frame sits on 9 x concrete pads (all various sizes but in the 0.75m x 0.75m x 0.75m area). The steel frame was erected in one day and was cheaper than you might have thought. It will need to be fireproofed to meet building regs so consider this. You are welcome to see what I'm up to (North Oxfordshire)
It was about £9k supplied and fitted (it is a cube of approx. 8m wide x 8m long x 4.5m high). I did the footings myself and have subsequently built up with wooden joists/stud walls etc. Fireproofing cost about £600. The structural calc's cost about £3k but I'd do this myself in future.
The steels are mostly 152 x 152mm for the columns and 102 x 203mm for the beams. It feels sturdy but you will need to brace it or dampen the shimmy you will always get with a steel frame. Another advantage of this steel frame is that you can tie in the barn walls if needs be. I would not think it impossible to get this delivered from the UK to France for a reasonable cost.......good luck.
The steels are mostly 152 x 152mm for the columns and 102 x 203mm for the beams. It feels sturdy but you will need to brace it or dampen the shimmy you will always get with a steel frame. Another advantage of this steel frame is that you can tie in the barn walls if needs be. I would not think it impossible to get this delivered from the UK to France for a reasonable cost.......good luck.
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