New dog jealous of the cats
Discussion
I'm posting on behalf of friends who have just brought home a lovely little dog - a male, apparently Rottweiler crossed with something VERY small as he's only about 30cm high at a year old. He's good as gold, and his only issue seems to be jealousy of their cats.
The only time they've heard him make a noise is when one of them goes to stroke one of their two cats, and the dog has barked and growled, his heart starts to race and he wants to get to them. He hasn't gone for either cat, but will growl and is clearly unhappy about it.
The poor little chap has just come from a rescue centre so I imagine it's largely that he's insecure and is dealing with a huge amount of disruption in his life, so they're not overly worried at this stage. However, they're interested to know how best to deal with it. Should they hold onto him, one of them cuddle him while the other is petting the cats? Should they keep stroking the cats when he's started to get upset, or stop, or start stroking him? Should they be firm and tell him 'no' when he starts barking, or be more sympathetic?
I have looked around online but the advice is mixed and some seems a bit anti-dog - e.g. put a muzzle on the dog in the house, put a remote collar on him, etc. I wonder if the combined wisdom of PH: Animal Division might have some more balanced advice!!
The only time they've heard him make a noise is when one of them goes to stroke one of their two cats, and the dog has barked and growled, his heart starts to race and he wants to get to them. He hasn't gone for either cat, but will growl and is clearly unhappy about it.
The poor little chap has just come from a rescue centre so I imagine it's largely that he's insecure and is dealing with a huge amount of disruption in his life, so they're not overly worried at this stage. However, they're interested to know how best to deal with it. Should they hold onto him, one of them cuddle him while the other is petting the cats? Should they keep stroking the cats when he's started to get upset, or stop, or start stroking him? Should they be firm and tell him 'no' when he starts barking, or be more sympathetic?
I have looked around online but the advice is mixed and some seems a bit anti-dog - e.g. put a muzzle on the dog in the house, put a remote collar on him, etc. I wonder if the combined wisdom of PH: Animal Division might have some more balanced advice!!
Personally I wouldn't stop stroking the cats and stroke him, as it is essentially rewarding him for his behaviour.
Perhaps just send him to his bed when he starts to growl, and then reward him if he stays there quietly.
Or of course the other alternative is to let the cat discipline him ...
Perhaps just send him to his bed when he starts to growl, and then reward him if he stays there quietly.
Or of course the other alternative is to let the cat discipline him ...
Thanks both of you for your thoughts - they are much appreciated. I think the reward rather than punishment approach that both of you suggest sounds positive. The cats are indoor cats so rewarding him when he sees them would be tricky as they're there all the time, but if he gets agitated when they get strokes and cuddles, sending him to his bed and then giving him a treat for staying there sounds like a plan and consistent with what you both advise.
Do you think it sounds like something quite normal and over-come-able? To me it seems like an understandable reaction to his ordeal, so not a massive deal and something that will hopefully subside over time. But I don't know!
Thanks again for your kind help!
Do you think it sounds like something quite normal and over-come-able? To me it seems like an understandable reaction to his ordeal, so not a massive deal and something that will hopefully subside over time. But I don't know!
Thanks again for your kind help!
therealpigdog said:
Personally I wouldn't stop stroking the cats and stroke him, as it is essentially rewarding him for his behaviour.
Perhaps just send him to his bed when he starts to growl, and then reward him if he stays there quietly.
Or of course the other alternative is to let the cat discipline him ...
yes Perhaps just send him to his bed when he starts to growl, and then reward him if he stays there quietly.
Or of course the other alternative is to let the cat discipline him ...
Mrs Grumpy said:
I would be building up positive associations with the cat, so cat appears, dog gets sweeties. Doesn't matter what he's doing as all you're doing is teaching him that the appearance of a cat = good things happen.
Agree - although mine was suppossed to be brought up with cats ,he's a terrier (so anything furry is chaseable) --on walks I idn't want him bothering cats ,and lucky enough there's a three legged one that has a house full of dogs - she made advances to mine ,he looked suprised and got a treat ,so tail wagged .Next round corner ,cat gets ito defencive mode ,he stands an looks ,tail wagging ,more treats .Now some months on ,cats in that area will come fom under cars to greet him ,but run from me .Simpo Two said:
I have to say it seems a rather silly combination to me. Why on earth did they get a rescue (ie probably screwed up) half-Rotty and expect it to work with two resident cats?
Petrol, match...
Assuming you're being serious (genuinely, not sure)... It seems an awful shame to write off the hundreds of dogs that are in shelters as 'screwed up' - the majority of dogs I know are from shelters and they're wonderful, not to mention well-balanced mongrels. And as for the half-Rotty issue, a) it's barely bigger than a dachsund, and b) regardless, Rotty doesn't necessarily equal 'cat-eater'. Petrol, match...
When I get a dog (in the new year - counting the days!) it'll certainly be from a shelter rather than a breeder / pet shop. Partly because they're in need, but also because I feel much happier taking on a mongrel from a shelter than a pure breed with the many issues that come with that. I have a cat and I reckon I have a fair chance of it not getting immediately eaten by my "probably screwed up" shelter mutt.
As said - the Rottie possibly wasn't as dangerous to kity as my furry munching terrier . He's pure bred ,but a rescue mutt - first home eight years of love . Second home - not so sure ,certainly after some reactions .Now after almost three years - he's back to spoilt (10 yr old ) spoilt mutt .He got to love cats because I mae a point of modifying his reactions . Now ,all I've got to o is persuade him is that all Staffies ain't evil .
Simpo Two said:
I have to say it seems a rather silly combination to me. Why on earth did they get a rescue (ie probably screwed up) half-Rotty and expect it to work with two resident cats?
Petrol, match...
This...exactly ! Petrol, match...
span said:
. I have a cat and I reckon I have a fair chance of it not getting immediately eaten by my "probably screwed up" shelter mutt.
Not totally confident then ?Simpo Two said:
I have to say it seems a rather silly combination to me. Why on earth did they get a rescue (ie probably screwed up) half-Rotty and expect it to work with two resident cats?
Petrol, match...
Quite.Petrol, match...
I do this all the time but with gundogs/totally free-range chickens. Nothing a bit of discipline can't cure with gentle daily reinforcement. They stop pretty quickly and realise the difference. BUT YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
I can't help feel that most rescue dogs are down to the owners and not the breed. Situations such as this (resident cats/guard dog) to my mind are pretty ill-thought out.
Mrs Grumpy et al know what they are doing.Some others taking a rescue dog are probably only making things worse because of a lack of forethought,despite their "feel good" factor.
Therefore learn what to do first. Get some experience with lesser problems and only then tackle the "petrol and match" situation.
tenex said:
I can't help feel that most rescue dogs are down to the owners and not the breed.
Sorry, don't understand that sentence because it doesn't make sense. I think it needs more words in it.tenex said:
Mrs Grumpy et al know what they are doing.Some others taking a rescue dog are probably only making things worse because of a lack of forethought,despite their "feel good" factor.
This little chap has been in a shelter for a few weeks, he's a year old and overall he's settling in beautifully, and his new owners are over the moon having wanted a dog for quite some time. For anyone who knows animals at all, the issues are clearly relatively minor and quite predictable when introducing a new dog to a home with cats. I really don't feel they are making things worse for the dog or the cats but many thanks all the same for your thoughts.tenex said:
Situations such as this (resident cats/guard dog) to my mind are pretty ill-thought out.
This is a sweet little dog, a year old and less than a foot tall, that's currently finding the cats a little bit stressful as he's scared by them and equally jealous of the attention they're getting, having been in the house for, now, all of 48 hours (I hate to disappoint but they haven't returned him to the shelter and apparently things are already improving). I'm sorry Tenex, it's probably my fault as I mentioned that it was a Rottweiler cross, which clearly worried you. He's under a foot tall and so far as shown himself to be, in general, as placid as they come - the cats will be fine. But he's settling in to a new home so it's a very important time, and it's always a great help to get constructive advice from a forum, and from people like Mrs Grumpy.
If your going to send him to his bed when he growls DO NOT give him a treat if he stays there as it totally defeats the purpose. It basically rewards him for growling.
'oh, if I growl at the cat I get sent to my bed for a treat'
It's growl = bed
No growl = treat
Both superb suggestions but don't combine the two in the way you suggest, it will only amplify the problem.
'oh, if I growl at the cat I get sent to my bed for a treat'
It's growl = bed
No growl = treat
Both superb suggestions but don't combine the two in the way you suggest, it will only amplify the problem.
span said:
it's probably my fault as I mentioned that it was a Rottweiler cross
It all helps build the picture. But size isn't important, witness my post recently about a pack of Westies that suddenly killed the resident cat after living with it for several years. Of course every situation is different and you only have one dog, so let's hope they eventually thrash out a pecking order and live in harmony Simpo Two said:
It all helps build the picture. But size isn't important, witness my post recently about a pack of Westies that suddenly killed the resident cat after living with it for several years. Of course every situation is different and you only have one dog, so let's hope they eventually thrash out a pecking order and live in harmony
Thanks Simpo - I did read that post at the time, and probably won't forget that story in a hurry, if ever. 
Just an awful, horrific story. In this case, the owners are very committed to all their animals and there's no question of the dog taking over as 'top pet' in their eyes, hence they're keen to get the balance right straight away. The cats are continuing to have the upper-hand, which is great, and I think his jealous behaviour is beginning to subside. I don't believe, as some do, that having a cat means that rescue dogs (or new dogs full stop) are out of the question, nor that you can immediately expect a dog and resident cat to be best mates. I do think with patience and the right handling, issues like this should be surmountable. These owners work from home, dedicate a LOT of time to their animals and care about the well-being of all of three pets, so I really don't see what they're doing - adopting a dog - as taking any sort of foolhardy risk. Though I do appreciate that without the full background on owners and dog, all that might not be obvious!
I would not send the dog to his bed as this is
a) punishing him
b) making his bed a place of punishment
The idea of feeding sweeties is that the cat become a marker for Good Things Happening. You are not asking for any behaviour, this is straightforward classical conditioning. Cat=sweetie. That's it.
Growling is a good thing. It is a warning sign. You do NOT want to punish out the warning signs, else you will have a dog that looks OK but will then go straight to bite. This is a typical consequence of the use of aversives/positive punishment/anything connected with Cesar Milan and his ilk
a) punishing him
b) making his bed a place of punishment
The idea of feeding sweeties is that the cat become a marker for Good Things Happening. You are not asking for any behaviour, this is straightforward classical conditioning. Cat=sweetie. That's it.
Growling is a good thing. It is a warning sign. You do NOT want to punish out the warning signs, else you will have a dog that looks OK but will then go straight to bite. This is a typical consequence of the use of aversives/positive punishment/anything connected with Cesar Milan and his ilk
Mrs Grumpy said:
I would not send the dog to his bed as this is
a) punishing him
b) making his bed a place of punishment
The idea of feeding sweeties is that the cat become a marker for Good Things Happening. You are not asking for any behaviour, this is straightforward classical conditioning. Cat=sweetie. That's it.
Growling is a good thing. It is a warning sign. You do NOT want to punish out the warning signs, else you will have a dog that looks OK but will then go straight to bite. This is a typical consequence of the use of aversives/positive punishment/anything connected with Cesar Milan and his ilk
Thank you v much Mrs Grumpy - I definitely prefer the idea of positive rather than negative reinforcement where possible. The issue is that the cats are ALWAYS around, being indoor cats, so they don't really appear as such. They're just always there! And it seems 99% of the time, he's fine with them - i.e. a bit scared of them. It's just the occasions when his mum or dad are giving one of the cats a stroke or a cuddle that he gets fretful. And I should add that it's not snarling or going for the cats - he remains apparently rather scared of them, but seeing them getting fuss makes him agitated and whiny / growl-y (from a safe distance!). a) punishing him
b) making his bed a place of punishment
The idea of feeding sweeties is that the cat become a marker for Good Things Happening. You are not asking for any behaviour, this is straightforward classical conditioning. Cat=sweetie. That's it.
Growling is a good thing. It is a warning sign. You do NOT want to punish out the warning signs, else you will have a dog that looks OK but will then go straight to bite. This is a typical consequence of the use of aversives/positive punishment/anything connected with Cesar Milan and his ilk
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