Do people *really* want drivers' cars?
Discussion
The recent threads on the BRZ/GT-86 have made me wonder if a driver's car is what people really want when it comes to actually buying a vehicle. The amount of comments that appeared to show complete loathing and disgust that the aforementioned had 'only' 200bhp, that they had small, skinny wheels and tyres and that the interior wasn't stitched together using red kite feathers and the foreskins of endangered animals was all a bit surprising.
Out of the hundreds of comments, there was only the tiniest of a tiny fraction of people who were actually concerned with what it feels like or how it drives.
And finally, interleaved comments on how certain FWD hatchbacks represent better value for money was like comparing apples with, I don't know, dildos or something.
Toyobaru have actually created something which should be a lot of fun and something the vast and overwhelming majority of people on the site have actually asked for.
People need to stop getting an erection for the non-disclosed pricing, stop comparing it to trees and church organs and wait until they can actually drive the damn thing.
I feel better now. Carry on.
Out of the hundreds of comments, there was only the tiniest of a tiny fraction of people who were actually concerned with what it feels like or how it drives.
And finally, interleaved comments on how certain FWD hatchbacks represent better value for money was like comparing apples with, I don't know, dildos or something.
Toyobaru have actually created something which should be a lot of fun and something the vast and overwhelming majority of people on the site have actually asked for.
People need to stop getting an erection for the non-disclosed pricing, stop comparing it to trees and church organs and wait until they can actually drive the damn thing.
I feel better now. Carry on.
Rawwr said:
The recent threads on the BRZ/GT-86 have made me wonder if a driver's car is what people really want when it comes to actually buying a vehicle. The amount of comments that appeared to show complete loathing and disgust that the aforementioned had 'only' 200bhp, that they had small, skinny wheels and tyres and that the interior wasn't stitched together using red kite feathers and the foreskins of endangered animals was all a bit surprising.
Out of the hundreds of comments, there was only the tiniest of a tiny fraction of people who were actually concerned with what it feels like or how it drives.
And finally, interleaved comments on how certain FWD hatchbacks represent better value for money was like comparing apples with, I don't know, dildos or something.
Toyobaru have actually created something which should be a lot of fun and something the vast and overwhelming majority of people on the site have actually asked for.
People need to stop getting an erection for the non-disclosed pricing, stop comparing it to trees and church organs and wait until they can actually drive the damn thing.
I feel better now. Carry on.
The thing is, in the "mass" market there are many who want, or rather 'think' they are petrol heads, but then go out and buy a Golf Out of the hundreds of comments, there was only the tiniest of a tiny fraction of people who were actually concerned with what it feels like or how it drives.
And finally, interleaved comments on how certain FWD hatchbacks represent better value for money was like comparing apples with, I don't know, dildos or something.
Toyobaru have actually created something which should be a lot of fun and something the vast and overwhelming majority of people on the site have actually asked for.
People need to stop getting an erection for the non-disclosed pricing, stop comparing it to trees and church organs and wait until they can actually drive the damn thing.
I feel better now. Carry on.
I think the FT-86 sounds fantastic in ethos and concept. Although I think it's a shame they've gone for such a middle ground in the appearance department. But maybe it'll look better in the flesh??
And pricing, I think 200hp is fine, but it needs to be priced accordingly. For similar powered low'ish weight thrills a Clio 200 does it a heck of a lot cheaper.
On the flip side, I'm not sure how 200hp will be respected in the USA. We might as a National care little for drag racing and 1/4 mile times, but it's big business out there. If they want to compete with the likes of the Mustang & Camaro V6, Genesis Coupe (V6 or 2.0T) or 370z sector, then they'll need to up the anti and offer a more powerful variant.
300bhp/ton said:
If they want to compete with the likes of the Mustang & Camaro V6, Genesis Coupe (V6 or 2.0T) or 370z sector, then they'll need to up the anti and offer a more powerful variant.
I'm not sure they do want to compete with them. In the same way I'm sure the Kia Sedona doesn't want to compete with a 458 Italia. Comparitive pricing at this level is redundant. I can't see any potential Mustang/Camaro customers wanting to shoehorn themselves into a coupe the size of an aubergine.300bhp/ton said:
The thing is, in the "mass" market there are many who want, or rather 'think' they are petrol heads, but then go out and buy a Golf
I do hope your wrong.Perhaps its a crap analogy but i am hoping that this will be like the original MX5, bringing back a type of car to the mass market that has been missing for a while, while keeping it (relitively) affordable etc...
can but hope, and i'll get a 2nd hand one years down the line
It is a car I will consider, but I would have been more interested if it had a bit more power, driving it might change my mind.
To put it in perspective, after not having, or needing, a car for a while I decided to buy something fun, I bought a 1.8 MX5 great fun little car but I got bored with it as it just didn't have enough power to satisfy me. I bought a 911 to replace it and it has more power but is less fun to drive and I am looking for an alternative, the toyota/subaru power/weight ratio is not going to be hugely better than the MX5 with 200hp, but another 50 might do it for me.
Lets see if they do bring out an STi version, that could swing it for me, that and how easy/difficult it is to get my old joints into/out of.
To put it in perspective, after not having, or needing, a car for a while I decided to buy something fun, I bought a 1.8 MX5 great fun little car but I got bored with it as it just didn't have enough power to satisfy me. I bought a 911 to replace it and it has more power but is less fun to drive and I am looking for an alternative, the toyota/subaru power/weight ratio is not going to be hugely better than the MX5 with 200hp, but another 50 might do it for me.
Lets see if they do bring out an STi version, that could swing it for me, that and how easy/difficult it is to get my old joints into/out of.
Rawwr said:
300bhp/ton said:
If they want to compete with the likes of the Mustang & Camaro V6, Genesis Coupe (V6 or 2.0T) or 370z sector, then they'll need to up the anti and offer a more powerful variant.
I'm not sure they do want to compete with them. In the same way I'm sure the Kia Sedona doesn't want to compete with a 458 Italia. Comparitive pricing at this level is redundant. I can't see any potential Mustang/Camaro customers wanting to shoehorn themselves into a coupe the size of an aubergine.The RX-8, a similar type of car was also pitched at this market, along with the 1 Series Coupe and at the time the Pontiac Solstice coupe and Saturn Sky.
Rawwr: It's a good point well made. There were lots of comments made about the way it looked - that shouldn't really be the deal-breaker if you are after a car that is nice to drive.
And as for the "only 200bhp" thing... that is the whole point! Look at some of the best "tuner cars" from Japan. They all start out with relatively lowly horsepower, but the whole fun with Jap tuning is seeing how far you can push it.
900bhp?
1,000bhp?
etc. Both of the above cars started out with "only 200bhp"
And as for the "only 200bhp" thing... that is the whole point! Look at some of the best "tuner cars" from Japan. They all start out with relatively lowly horsepower, but the whole fun with Jap tuning is seeing how far you can push it.
900bhp?
1,000bhp?
etc. Both of the above cars started out with "only 200bhp"
OllieC said:
300bhp/ton said:
The thing is, in the "mass" market there are many who want, or rather 'think' they are petrol heads, but then go out and buy a Golf
I do hope your wrong.Perhaps its a crap analogy but i am hoping that this will be like the original MX5, bringing back a type of car to the mass market that has been missing for a while, while keeping it (relitively) affordable etc...
can but hope, and i'll get a 2nd hand one years down the line
But if it is £28k starting price, that's a lot of money compared to what you can buy. If they can crack the fleet market (as the RX-8 did), then I can see a strong sales success in the medium to short term in the UK, but I can't see that many people buying them privately.
I know you shouldn't really compare to used prices. But, if you are wanting a 2nd/weekend car and can afford £28k, then chances are you'd consider used, or at least approved used from a main dealer. This suddenly means Anything from a Lotus to a Porsche is easily available at this money. In short, you'll be able to buy more bang for your buck, in either the HP, speed or handling stakes.
300bhp/ton said:
I suspect its very much identical size to the Genesis coupe if you put the tape measure on them.
You suspect wrong.ETA: Figures for the two:
Wheelbase 2,819mm
Length 4,630mm
Width 1,864mm
Height 1,379mm
Wheelbase 2,570mm
Length 4,240mm
Width 1,775mm
Height 1,300mm
Edited by Rawwr on Thursday 1st December 09:02
Mr Gear said:
Rawwr: It's a good point well made. There were lots of comments made about the way it looked - that shouldn't really be the deal-breaker if you are after a car that is nice to drive.
And as for the "only 200bhp" thing... that is the whole point! Look at some of the best "tuner cars" from Japan. They all start out with relatively lowly horsepower, but the whole fun with Jap tuning is seeing how far you can push it.
900bhp?
1,000bhp?
etc. Both of the above cars started out with "only 200bhp"
wow talk about missing the point. Neither of the cars you've posted look to be road legal and both will have had HUGE, sorry did I say H U G E sums of money spent on them to get to that level.And as for the "only 200bhp" thing... that is the whole point! Look at some of the best "tuner cars" from Japan. They all start out with relatively lowly horsepower, but the whole fun with Jap tuning is seeing how far you can push it.
900bhp?
1,000bhp?
etc. Both of the above cars started out with "only 200bhp"
Japanese performance cars on the whole gained their notoriety because they where turbocharged and often sold for modest money. This meant a low cost tweak after purchase could significantly increase the HP output. Neither of the points are relevant to the FT-86 at present.
Rawwr said:
The recent threads on the BRZ/GT-86 have made me wonder if a driver's car is what people really want when it comes to actually buying a vehicle. The amount of comments that appeared to show complete loathing and disgust that the aforementioned had 'only' 200bhp, that they had small, skinny wheels and tyres and that the interior wasn't stitched together using red kite feathers and the foreskins of endangered animals was all a bit surprising.
Out of the hundreds of comments, there was only the tiniest of a tiny fraction of people who were actually concerned with what it feels like or how it drives.
And finally, interleaved comments on how certain FWD hatchbacks represent better value for money was like comparing apples with, I don't know, dildos or something.
Toyobaru have actually created something which should be a lot of fun and something the vast and overwhelming majority of people on the site have actually asked for.
People need to stop getting an erection for the non-disclosed pricing, stop comparing it to trees and church organs and wait until they can actually drive the damn thing.
I feel better now. Carry on.
I agree entirely with you, except for one minor insignificant detail...Out of the hundreds of comments, there was only the tiniest of a tiny fraction of people who were actually concerned with what it feels like or how it drives.
And finally, interleaved comments on how certain FWD hatchbacks represent better value for money was like comparing apples with, I don't know, dildos or something.
Toyobaru have actually created something which should be a lot of fun and something the vast and overwhelming majority of people on the site have actually asked for.
People need to stop getting an erection for the non-disclosed pricing, stop comparing it to trees and church organs and wait until they can actually drive the damn thing.
I feel better now. Carry on.
That somebody who wanted a drivers car would want the 2 extra seats in the back and the extra length in the chassis with the extra weight.
Now if the ricer had just been 2 seats, 2" shorter and 100Kgs lighter...THEN...I would say they had made a drivers car. As it is, its just a rwd alternative to a hot hatch to me.
300bhp/ton said:
wow talk about missing the point. Neither of the cars you've posted look to be road legal and both will have had HUGE, sorry did I say H U G E sums of money spent on them to get to that level.
Japanese performance cars on the whole gained their notoriety because they where turbocharged and often sold for modest money. This meant a low cost tweak after purchase could significantly increase the HP output. Neither of the points are relevant to the FT-86 at present.
Why argue with me just because you disagreed with something I said in a previous thread? Both these cars are at the peak of what you can do to them, but there are thousands of Civic type Rs and RX7s around the country that have been modified to varying degrees. It's what the market for Jap sports cars wants. Pick up a copy of Japanese Performance and look at the way they have hailed it as the messiah. That market will lap it up, and the low-ish bhp available from the factory is no barrier to it being popular with people that want to fiddle with it.Japanese performance cars on the whole gained their notoriety because they where turbocharged and often sold for modest money. This meant a low cost tweak after purchase could significantly increase the HP output. Neither of the points are relevant to the FT-86 at present.
300bhp/ton said:
I can. The FT-86 isn't exactly a tiny Elise type car, in fact I suspect its very much identical size to the Genesis coupe if you put the tape measure on them.
The RX-8, a similar type of car was also pitched at this market, along with the 1 Series Coupe and at the time the Pontiac Solstice coupe and Saturn Sky.
Behave! The current Mustang and Camaro are both two feet longer than the FT86. They're in a bigger size class. The Solstice and Sky are both better competitors size-wise, although they are only two seaters.The RX-8, a similar type of car was also pitched at this market, along with the 1 Series Coupe and at the time the Pontiac Solstice coupe and Saturn Sky.
Solstice 159 inches
Sky 161 inches
FT86 164 inches
Genesis 182 inches
Mustang 188 inches
Camaro 190 inches
DJRC said:
I agree entirely with you, except for one minor insignificant detail...
That somebody who wanted a drivers car would want the 2 extra seats in the back and the extra length in the chassis with the extra weight.
Now if the ricer had just been 2 seats, 2" shorter and 100Kgs lighter...THEN...I would say they had made a drivers car. As it is, its just a rwd alternative to a hot hatch to me.
Hmm, I take your point but would shortening the overall length potentially end up shortening the wheelbase? Could that have a detrimental effect? That somebody who wanted a drivers car would want the 2 extra seats in the back and the extra length in the chassis with the extra weight.
Now if the ricer had just been 2 seats, 2" shorter and 100Kgs lighter...THEN...I would say they had made a drivers car. As it is, its just a rwd alternative to a hot hatch to me.
You see it as a RWD alternative to a hot hatch, whereas I see it as a 4-seat alternative to a Lotus Exige.
Rawwr said:
300bhp/ton said:
I suspect its very much identical size to the Genesis coupe if you put the tape measure on them.
You suspect wrong.Seems you are correct, it's smaller than I thought.
| Wheelbase | Length | Width | Height | Weight | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Genesis Coupe | 111" | 182.3" | 73.4" (inc mirrors??) | 54.3" | 1560kg |
| FT 86 | 101.2" | 166.9" | 69.9" | 50.6" | 1210kg |
| RX-8 | 106.3" | 170.3" | 70.1" | 52.4" | 1345kg |
| MX-5 | 91.7" | 157.3" | 67.7" | 49" | 1110kg |
| 370z | 100.4" | 167.2" | 72.8" | 51.9" | 1466kg |
| Clio Cup | 101.8" | 158.1" | 69.6" | 58.4" | 1204kg |
300bhp/ton said:
From Carfolio:
Seems you are correct, it's smaller than I thought.
Basically the size and weight of a Clio. Impressive.Seems you are correct, it's smaller than I thought.
| Wheelbase | Length | Width | Height | Weight | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Genesis Coupe | 111" | 182.3" | 73.4" (inc mirrors??) | 54.3" | 1560kg |
| FT 86 | 101.2" | 166.9" | 69.9" | 50.6" | 1210kg |
| RX-8 | 106.3" | 170.3" | 70.1" | 52.4" | 1345kg |
| MX-5 | 91.7" | 157.3" | 67.7" | 49" | 1110kg |
| 370z | 100.4" | 167.2" | 72.8" | 51.9" | 1466kg |
| Clio Cup | 101.8" | 158.1" | 69.6" | 58.4" | 1204kg |
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