Thinking about a high mileage 997 Gen1
Discussion
I've been planning on finally scratching the 911 itch, and I was pretty much set on a Gen2 997, lowish miles, C2 manual.
I was hoping I could get the right car, look after it and avoid the worst of the depreciation.
But as I look at the prices, and the sensitivity to miles on the clock I've been thinking about an early Gen1. Go for a high miles example that's already suffered depreciation stick some spare cash in the bank in case the engine goes pop and aim to use and enjoy it more.
(Also I'm hoping a high mileage example is less likely to have engine problems as any engine issues will have already emerged.)
However I'm a bit surprise there are so few high mileage examples out there, given the 911 is the 'everyday supercar' I'd have thought there'd be plenty around.
New to Porsches so thanks in advance for any help and advice!
I was hoping I could get the right car, look after it and avoid the worst of the depreciation.
But as I look at the prices, and the sensitivity to miles on the clock I've been thinking about an early Gen1. Go for a high miles example that's already suffered depreciation stick some spare cash in the bank in case the engine goes pop and aim to use and enjoy it more.
(Also I'm hoping a high mileage example is less likely to have engine problems as any engine issues will have already emerged.)
However I'm a bit surprise there are so few high mileage examples out there, given the 911 is the 'everyday supercar' I'd have thought there'd be plenty around.
New to Porsches so thanks in advance for any help and advice!
I can recommend a Gen 1 997. Here's a nice one: https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
sam303 said:
Here's a nice one: https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
I went to view that when it was up for sale previously. I walked due to poor paint repair on the driver's side, suspected it had been in a shunt and hadn't been declared.Looked nice from a distance though. I like the combination of Carrera Sport wheels and aero bumper/spoiler.
I was in a similar frame of mind about a year ago and went for a 997 Gen 1 with 110k ish miles on the clock.
I looked a quite a few rough ones then found one that had been mollycoddled with bills for over £12k of work in the past 5 years. It was a very nice spec C4S and I picked it up for £19k.
The mileage didn't put me off, 100k is nothing or at least should be nothing for a modern engine provided it has been looked after and serviced. I don't think the mileage means it is any more or less likely to have bore scoring although in my (very) limited experience it does seem to be cars with far lower mileage being rebuilt. I had the bores inspected when I came to sell (as I thought that would be the first question anyone would ask) and it was all fine.
Get one with plenty of history, a good spec and an M97 engine for the later IMS which is far less likely to cause issues (late 2005 onwards) and if you can, wait until end of September / October (I did).
I sold it a month or so ago having scratched the itch. It was a lovely car but not for me.
Good luck.
I looked a quite a few rough ones then found one that had been mollycoddled with bills for over £12k of work in the past 5 years. It was a very nice spec C4S and I picked it up for £19k.
The mileage didn't put me off, 100k is nothing or at least should be nothing for a modern engine provided it has been looked after and serviced. I don't think the mileage means it is any more or less likely to have bore scoring although in my (very) limited experience it does seem to be cars with far lower mileage being rebuilt. I had the bores inspected when I came to sell (as I thought that would be the first question anyone would ask) and it was all fine.
Get one with plenty of history, a good spec and an M97 engine for the later IMS which is far less likely to cause issues (late 2005 onwards) and if you can, wait until end of September / October (I did).
I sold it a month or so ago having scratched the itch. It was a lovely car but not for me.
Good luck.
Afternoon,
You're right about the Gen2 997 and it's ability to hold it's price. Clearly this is down to the apparent resistance of the later engine design in regard to the litany of issues that have affected a (small) number of owners, and the (huge) number of articles and comments you'll find online to scare yourself witless.
You're also on the money in terms of thinking that a Gen1 997 with high miles will be a good buy as it's survived this long without issue, so should be good for a while yet. This is also mentioned often in articles, but usually as a post-script so gets overlooked which is tragic, as a well-maintained correctly used Gen1 is a complete riot.
Long way of saying the reason you don't find many high mile 997s for sale is precisely that - people hold onto them because they know deprecation isn't really going to go much lower than it already has, and the engine has been trouble-free until now, so there's less worry about keeping it longer term anyway. This is particularly true of cars that (mine included) are usually used infrequently, so adding say, 5000 miles or so each year isn't going to result in big bills or less value overall as time goes on.
The other thing with a high-mile long term owner is you can almost always find a better-than-standard history. For example, mine has an oil and filter change every year regardless (Fresh oil only every two years? no thanks) and every little niggle gets jumped on straightaway to prevent it becoming something worse. Obviously this doesn't completely prevent the possibility of a big bill every so often. Don't get me wrong, the cars are built to a superb standard and can take a lot of hard use, but even the youngest ones are now 10 years old, so some elements (suspension is a biggie) are going to need refreshing soon unless they've already been done.
A good indicator is to check a prospective purchase against the DVLAs MOT History site - you'll hopefully be able to track any failures or advisories against the history to confirm that if an item was raised at MOT time, it was rectified by the owner soon after instead of being left until it really HAD to get done.
Hope this helps!
You're right about the Gen2 997 and it's ability to hold it's price. Clearly this is down to the apparent resistance of the later engine design in regard to the litany of issues that have affected a (small) number of owners, and the (huge) number of articles and comments you'll find online to scare yourself witless.
You're also on the money in terms of thinking that a Gen1 997 with high miles will be a good buy as it's survived this long without issue, so should be good for a while yet. This is also mentioned often in articles, but usually as a post-script so gets overlooked which is tragic, as a well-maintained correctly used Gen1 is a complete riot.
Long way of saying the reason you don't find many high mile 997s for sale is precisely that - people hold onto them because they know deprecation isn't really going to go much lower than it already has, and the engine has been trouble-free until now, so there's less worry about keeping it longer term anyway. This is particularly true of cars that (mine included) are usually used infrequently, so adding say, 5000 miles or so each year isn't going to result in big bills or less value overall as time goes on.
The other thing with a high-mile long term owner is you can almost always find a better-than-standard history. For example, mine has an oil and filter change every year regardless (Fresh oil only every two years? no thanks) and every little niggle gets jumped on straightaway to prevent it becoming something worse. Obviously this doesn't completely prevent the possibility of a big bill every so often. Don't get me wrong, the cars are built to a superb standard and can take a lot of hard use, but even the youngest ones are now 10 years old, so some elements (suspension is a biggie) are going to need refreshing soon unless they've already been done.
A good indicator is to check a prospective purchase against the DVLAs MOT History site - you'll hopefully be able to track any failures or advisories against the history to confirm that if an item was raised at MOT time, it was rectified by the owner soon after instead of being left until it really HAD to get done.
Hope this helps!
WojaWabbit said:
I went to view that when it was up for sale previously. I walked due to poor paint repair on the driver's side, suspected it had been in a shunt and hadn't been declared.
Looked nice from a distance though. I like the combination of Carrera Sport wheels and aero bumper/spoiler.
Can I ask where you viewed that for sale? Looked nice from a distance though. I like the combination of Carrera Sport wheels and aero bumper/spoiler.
sam303 said:
Can I ask where you viewed that for sale?
The same garage the main photo in the ad was taken. I can PM you if you don't know which one it is from the ad but I'm wary of the forum ma name & shame rules.To be fair the garage owner said he'd done his due diligence, it wasn't recorded and he'd had it all checked out. He was sure it was only minor cosmetic work but for £30k-odd I wanted to be 100% certain.
Lurking said:
Thanks for the insights, very helpful. @purplefox that's the kind of car I had in mind, did you buy private?
Sounds like I need to do research on post 2005 engines I thought all gen 1 engines were the same.
Hi - yes I bought privately. Personally, I don't really see what value a trader adds, they are unlikely to give it warranty and most don't seem to be interested in 'higher' mileage cars. Buying private obviously gives you chance to meet the current owner and see how the car has been kept which is a bonus too.Sounds like I need to do research on post 2005 engines I thought all gen 1 engines were the same.
The 997 gen 1 had the M96 to start with then went M97 from late 05. All 'S' models were M97. Issues with the IMS and RMS not unheard of but less common from what I read (some say the issue was fixed but going by the internet you can't be sure).
Like has been said - if you read the internet you will scare yourself silly with the horror stories but the majority of cars will be fine. Just stop reading and buy one, great cars.
With regards to high mileage, I wouldnt worry too much about it. I bought my 997 gen1 turbo 2 years ago with 69,000 on the clock. Using it as my daily driver its now about to go over the 100,000 mile mark. They are cracking cars as a daily driver.
For the first 28,000 miles / 2 years the only expense I had outside of normal consumables like tyres, service & MOTs were 2 engine sensors fail, which cost £250 to replace which I thought was pretty good going.
Ive just had the clutch slave & master replaced a couple of weeks ago (around £650) and as the car was still running its original suspension I had it all thoroughly checked at Centre Gravity. Their verdict was that the shocks are all still within new tolerances and the only suspension components which needed to be replace were 2 rear coffin arms which had a little bit of play in them.
Other than that, the car drives like its brand new, so agile, tight, very quick. The only other thing which it needs is to have its wheels refurbished as driving it through winters has taken its toll on them a little.
Cheap motoring really!
For the first 28,000 miles / 2 years the only expense I had outside of normal consumables like tyres, service & MOTs were 2 engine sensors fail, which cost £250 to replace which I thought was pretty good going.
Ive just had the clutch slave & master replaced a couple of weeks ago (around £650) and as the car was still running its original suspension I had it all thoroughly checked at Centre Gravity. Their verdict was that the shocks are all still within new tolerances and the only suspension components which needed to be replace were 2 rear coffin arms which had a little bit of play in them.
Other than that, the car drives like its brand new, so agile, tight, very quick. The only other thing which it needs is to have its wheels refurbished as driving it through winters has taken its toll on them a little.
Cheap motoring really!
The engine is more of a concern in the carrera than the turbo tho...
Personally I wouldn't buy a high mileage 997 that hadn't had it's cylinders rounded with a closed deck. But many have and lived to tell the tale, and enjoyed their cars in the meantime. I went high mileage 996 3.4 instead.
Personally I wouldn't buy a high mileage 997 that hadn't had it's cylinders rounded with a closed deck. But many have and lived to tell the tale, and enjoyed their cars in the meantime. I went high mileage 996 3.4 instead.
Thanks all, pleased to hear that my thought process didn't have any holes in it!
Also, looking on autotrader there are a reasonable number of higher mileage cars out there (albeit few with informative adverts). Sounds like I need to hit the archives for a bit more engine research (and try not to scare myself). From the limited adverts it looks like remedial engine work adds about £5k to the value, but that's still plenty less than the gen 2 cars.
@The_Doc the timings may work out, won't be in a position to buy until September at the earliest.
Also, looking on autotrader there are a reasonable number of higher mileage cars out there (albeit few with informative adverts). Sounds like I need to hit the archives for a bit more engine research (and try not to scare myself). From the limited adverts it looks like remedial engine work adds about £5k to the value, but that's still plenty less than the gen 2 cars.
@The_Doc the timings may work out, won't be in a position to buy until September at the earliest.
I have a C4S 2006 which I bought a year ago with 94k on it. It had a full Porsche history although much of the recommended work had been done outside of Porsche. Porsche had rebuilt the engine at 50k miles.
I put it through Porsches 111 check (battery was expensive but actually very little to fix otherwise), and then bought a 2 year warrantee. Porsche will sell you this (same one given to every used car) up to 125k miles or 14years old.
I have got my money out of the warrantee, though. Had a new gearbox (manual) a couple of months ago for synchromesh wear, as well as a few other bits. All in all it would have cost me about £10k so the £1900 warrantee was a bargain.
It now has 103k on the clock and I don't think it has lost any amount of money. I paid bottom dollar so I think it may even be worth more.
So for me, a vote for a high mileage car. But then it is my daily driver, so not a museum piece!
Rich
I put it through Porsches 111 check (battery was expensive but actually very little to fix otherwise), and then bought a 2 year warrantee. Porsche will sell you this (same one given to every used car) up to 125k miles or 14years old.
I have got my money out of the warrantee, though. Had a new gearbox (manual) a couple of months ago for synchromesh wear, as well as a few other bits. All in all it would have cost me about £10k so the £1900 warrantee was a bargain.
It now has 103k on the clock and I don't think it has lost any amount of money. I paid bottom dollar so I think it may even be worth more.
So for me, a vote for a high mileage car. But then it is my daily driver, so not a museum piece!
Rich
Hi my advice would be go for a Gen 2 997 S and avoid the pit falls of the Gen 1 unless it has had a full non OPC rebuild. Every one seems to acknowledge that Hartech are the "go to" engine remanufacture for the 3.8 S.
Known pit falls include: Bore scoring (very common IMHO), RMS leaks, IMS failure and don't forget to check exhaust threads as the bolts fitted rust and shear off which is not a cheap job to drill out and replace.
OPC simply rebuild and replace the dodgy bores if scored with the same materials. There seems to be a consenses that the IMS bearing failure risk can be reduced if the engine has more frequent oil changes.
My C2S 3.8 barely lasted 1000 miles after purchase despite the guy selling it assuring me that it had been inspected by an OPC technician and given a clean bill of health. Mine is 2004 and will be having the engine removed this week as suspected bore scoring on No. 4 with metalic flecks in the oil filter. I will then be sent to Hartech hence a spend of £7k +vat probably needed before i can drive it again. It has 63k with full history. Lovely car but ownership has its risks.
Known pit falls include: Bore scoring (very common IMHO), RMS leaks, IMS failure and don't forget to check exhaust threads as the bolts fitted rust and shear off which is not a cheap job to drill out and replace.
OPC simply rebuild and replace the dodgy bores if scored with the same materials. There seems to be a consenses that the IMS bearing failure risk can be reduced if the engine has more frequent oil changes.
My C2S 3.8 barely lasted 1000 miles after purchase despite the guy selling it assuring me that it had been inspected by an OPC technician and given a clean bill of health. Mine is 2004 and will be having the engine removed this week as suspected bore scoring on No. 4 with metalic flecks in the oil filter. I will then be sent to Hartech hence a spend of £7k +vat probably needed before i can drive it again. It has 63k with full history. Lovely car but ownership has its risks.
Hi,
I bought my Gen 1 Carrera S in January 2016, when it had 50,000 miles on it.
Its my daily transport and i do 20,000-ish miles a year in it.
My theory is the longer they stand still, the more problems you have..
Buy it. Use it. Enjoy it.
I'm aiming for 300k miles, as i can only replace it with a Gen 2 and assuming I could get the right spec, the difference is more than the cost of a new engine/new suspension........
I bought my Gen 1 Carrera S in January 2016, when it had 50,000 miles on it.
Its my daily transport and i do 20,000-ish miles a year in it.
My theory is the longer they stand still, the more problems you have..
Buy it. Use it. Enjoy it.
I'm aiming for 300k miles, as i can only replace it with a Gen 2 and assuming I could get the right spec, the difference is more than the cost of a new engine/new suspension........
STiG911 said:
Afternoon,
You're right about the Gen2 997 and it's ability to hold it's price. Clearly this is down to the apparent resistance of the later engine design in regard to the litany of issues that have affected a (small) number of owners, and the (huge) number of articles and comments you'll find online to scare yourself witless.
You're also on the money in terms of thinking that a Gen1 997 with high miles will be a good buy as it's survived this long without issue, so should be good for a while yet. This is also mentioned often in articles, but usually as a post-script so gets overlooked which is tragic, as a well-maintained correctly used Gen1 is a complete riot.
Long way of saying the reason you don't find many high mile 997s for sale is precisely that - people hold onto them because they know deprecation isn't really going to go much lower than it already has, and the engine has been trouble-free until now, so there's less worry about keeping it longer term anyway. This is particularly true of cars that (mine included) are usually used infrequently, so adding say, 5000 miles or so each year isn't going to result in big bills or less value overall as time goes on.
The other thing with a high-mile long term owner is you can almost always find a better-than-standard history. For example, mine has an oil and filter change every year regardless (Fresh oil only every two years? no thanks) and every little niggle gets jumped on straightaway to prevent it becoming something worse. Obviously this doesn't completely prevent the possibility of a big bill every so often. Don't get me wrong, the cars are built to a superb standard and can take a lot of hard use, but even the youngest ones are now 10 years old, so some elements (suspension is a biggie) are going to need refreshing soon unless they've already been done.
A good indicator is to check a prospective purchase against the DVLAs MOT History site - you'll hopefully be able to track any failures or advisories against the history to confirm that if an item was raised at MOT time, it was rectified by the owner soon after instead of being left until it really HAD to get done.
Hope this helps!
A significant contributor to the strong residuals value of the Gen 2 is down to the timing... They were launched at the same time as the economic slow-down kicked in, so the "pool" of cars is a lot smaller from the 2008/2009/2010 era.... which is annoying!You're right about the Gen2 997 and it's ability to hold it's price. Clearly this is down to the apparent resistance of the later engine design in regard to the litany of issues that have affected a (small) number of owners, and the (huge) number of articles and comments you'll find online to scare yourself witless.
You're also on the money in terms of thinking that a Gen1 997 with high miles will be a good buy as it's survived this long without issue, so should be good for a while yet. This is also mentioned often in articles, but usually as a post-script so gets overlooked which is tragic, as a well-maintained correctly used Gen1 is a complete riot.
Long way of saying the reason you don't find many high mile 997s for sale is precisely that - people hold onto them because they know deprecation isn't really going to go much lower than it already has, and the engine has been trouble-free until now, so there's less worry about keeping it longer term anyway. This is particularly true of cars that (mine included) are usually used infrequently, so adding say, 5000 miles or so each year isn't going to result in big bills or less value overall as time goes on.
The other thing with a high-mile long term owner is you can almost always find a better-than-standard history. For example, mine has an oil and filter change every year regardless (Fresh oil only every two years? no thanks) and every little niggle gets jumped on straightaway to prevent it becoming something worse. Obviously this doesn't completely prevent the possibility of a big bill every so often. Don't get me wrong, the cars are built to a superb standard and can take a lot of hard use, but even the youngest ones are now 10 years old, so some elements (suspension is a biggie) are going to need refreshing soon unless they've already been done.
A good indicator is to check a prospective purchase against the DVLAs MOT History site - you'll hopefully be able to track any failures or advisories against the history to confirm that if an item was raised at MOT time, it was rectified by the owner soon after instead of being left until it really HAD to get done.
Hope this helps!
Rossco196x said:
Bore scoring (very common IMHO),.
I'm not up for a flame war, but can you evidence this?There are thousands of Gen 1s still running out there.
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q...
Do you reckon 1in 10 for bore scoring?
1 in 30?
Are you objective, or long suffering?
..... Trying to keep it friendly here....
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