Discussion
I'm fairly new to Porsche ownership and have a 993 C2 ('96 with BBS LM 18" wheels). My question is to do with handling. I've owned a fair number of fast cars (inc. Impreza WRX and BMW M Coupe) and just don't find the 993 to inspire confidence around corners. At speed the front always feels vague / light as if it is going to run wide at any moment.
I don't think I'm being paranoid but equally don't know if this is simply down to a different 'style' being required. Has anyone got any ideas or maybe experience with 18" wheels. The tyres by the way are Avon's, suspension is standard. I don't know what pressures people tend to run on 18" wheels.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
I don't think I'm being paranoid but equally don't know if this is simply down to a different 'style' being required. Has anyone got any ideas or maybe experience with 18" wheels. The tyres by the way are Avon's, suspension is standard. I don't know what pressures people tend to run on 18" wheels.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
As standard, should be stable and pretty surefooted, even compared to what you are used to.
They are very sensitive to alignment, so I'd get that checked plus a once over to check nothing is warn out. Could also be due to the offset of the wheels / any lowering / tyres etc.
Hope that helps!
They are very sensitive to alignment, so I'd get that checked plus a once over to check nothing is warn out. Could also be due to the offset of the wheels / any lowering / tyres etc.
Hope that helps!
taipan said:
The tyres by the way are Avon's, suspension is standard.
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Taipan, that's the reason why !
avon tyres are awful
IMHO and not even Porsche approved and the OEM suspension is only good for 40k....
you need proper porsche approved tyres and new suspension, Bilstein or H&R
and a strut brace
your car will be transformed !
trust me !!
I run a 91 964 C2, sublime handling till I fitted avons on rear (tightness half the price of an N rated tyre) then back end was all over the place, after following it in another car with a poor victim/father driving the 911 I saw why.............
The sidewall was deforming and allowing the car to wander, from inside the car it was terrifying, you'd go in to a corner it would be fine then just let go, driving above 60 was impossible, took them straight back and fitted Bridgestones, all ok.
The tyres (and pressures) make a huge difference to a Porsche, Think of it as a thoroughbred horse, the design process is nothing like any other car out there Inc subaru and BMW (good as they are) the cars although very tough, reliable and resiliant need the right parts to function at their best. You'll soon be upsetting Sti's with the best of them
The sidewall was deforming and allowing the car to wander, from inside the car it was terrifying, you'd go in to a corner it would be fine then just let go, driving above 60 was impossible, took them straight back and fitted Bridgestones, all ok.
The tyres (and pressures) make a huge difference to a Porsche, Think of it as a thoroughbred horse, the design process is nothing like any other car out there Inc subaru and BMW (good as they are) the cars although very tough, reliable and resiliant need the right parts to function at their best. You'll soon be upsetting Sti's with the best of them
Thanks for the initial feedback guys. I have fitted a strut brace recently but really didn't notice any difference. I am also going to get the sterring rack brace from Carnewal which is recommended for 18" wheels.
Does changing the suspension involve springs and dampers or just dampers? Also the comment about tyre pressures - has anyone got any suggestions? Cheers, Martin.
Does changing the suspension involve springs and dampers or just dampers? Also the comment about tyre pressures - has anyone got any suggestions? Cheers, Martin.
taipan said:
Thanks for the initial feedback guys. I have fitted a strut brace recently but really didn't notice any difference. I am also going to get the sterring rack brace from Carnewal which is recommended for 18" wheels.
Does changing the suspension involve springs and dampers or just dampers? Also the comment about tyre pressures - has anyone got any suggestions? Cheers, Martin.
the strut barce would only improve good handling
sounds like your shockes are completely dead !
a good time to fit new shocks and springs all the way around... no point in fitting new springs to old shocks, vice versa, etc and get rid of the avons !!!
OEM 18's pressures, worth dropping a few PSI as they can be very hard, and get the steering rack brace fitted...
Personally I don't feel the 993 to be under sprung for everyday spirited use. But is massively underdamped as standard, this combined with the dampers being old and tired leads to broncho style handling.
Fit Bilstein HD and get the tracking sorted. I wouldn't bother changing springs, they don't wear out.!
Graham
Fit Bilstein HD and get the tracking sorted. I wouldn't bother changing springs, they don't wear out.!
Graham
Anyone driving a 993 on original suspension is either a driving god or in for a big hedge vacation.
Think about what your suspension has to do and what that movement does to oil inside.
Get them changed, rebuilt or whatever. But they are weeeeeell pased their use by date, on a fast car.
Think about what your suspension has to do and what that movement does to oil inside.
Get them changed, rebuilt or whatever. But they are weeeeeell pased their use by date, on a fast car.
If you were going to replace parts, I (personally) would keep everything original - the regular 993 is one of the finest handling cars ever. I did about 12 trackdays in mine, along with Milbrook and Chobham instruction days, and never wished for more of this or less of that. Perfect. I ran on original equipment ContiSportContacts, and found them grippy and hard-wearing - they seemed to suit the car.
colin5577 said:
If you were going to replace parts, I (personally) would keep everything original - the regular 993 is one of the finest handling cars ever. I did about 12 trackdays in mine, along with Milbrook and Chobham instruction days, and never wished for more of this or less of that. Perfect. I ran on original equipment ContiSportContacts, and found them grippy and hard-wearing - they seemed to suit the car.
This man can obviously drive, the standard car as it came from Porsche was nigh on perfect.
At the end of the day these cars are road cars, we need them to handle predictably and well so we can enjoy the drive, we aren't going for tenths of a second on a circuit, but if we were I doubt there is anyone on here who could lap a circuit within a second of a top driver in the same car, so if you want to get more from your car do the hard bit and learn to drive better not the easy bit and throw cash at your car.............You know what they say about a workman and his tools!
Conti's or Bridgestones + Standard or Rs spec suspension + Good driver = Answer to your problem.
colin5577 said:
If you were going to replace parts, I (personally) would keep everything original - the regular 993 is one of the finest handling cars ever. I did about 12 trackdays in mine, along with Milbrook and Chobham instruction days, and never wished for more of this or less of that. Perfect. I ran on original equipment ContiSportContacts, and found them grippy and hard-wearing - they seemed to suit the car.
Agree (again) any 993 in "as new" condition is a generous car to a most drivers. The issue is if your car is in or near that condition. Remember it is a road car above all and 285 BHP in a NA car in the mid nineties was a rare thing. As such Porsche were one of the few manufacturers at the limit of road tyre development. N compounds are not just a conspiracy, they do make a difference. Technique is quirky and important too and comes with time. Get it right and the satisfaction of swinging a 911 through a bend will become a joy not a laundry event.
police state said:
Is there any baseline/technical/visual inpsection method to inidcate if the dampers/shocks 'have gone' apart from the frequently echoed 'they go after 60k miles'?
Not really, other than the fact that the car oes "soft" and generally does not have the ultimate control under high loads. The secondary fact that most standard shocks on the 993 were made by Monroe should also qualify the 50k mile rule.
My recommendations for improving the stock 993 are:
1. Make sure all suspension/joints/shocks are in perfect condition (which is sufficient for most)
2. Good tyres all round (does not matter if you choose 17" or 18" wheels)
3. Handling kit (we recommend KW, but Bilstein/H&R/Cargraphic/Gemblla/Eibach are all sound choices)
4. Stiff rear axle kit (GT2 Clubsport package)
5. RS anti roll bars
6. GT2 steering arms
I also wouldn`t be averse to tweaking the suspension a little. It doesn`t necessarily take much, new front wishbones, a spring / damper pack and adjustable anti roll bars.
Something like a strut brace on your car isn`t going to make any difference if the the strut tops are being insulated from movement by a tired or soggy suspension.
It is possible (and desirable) to still keep the ride complient but to support the car more when cornering. The 993 does tend to roll more than, say a 964. We`ve had some cracking 993`s through our hands ride-wise some of which were bought of people who post here. The last one I can think of has now been replaced by a rather orange (in a Zanzibar kind of way) GT3.
Henry
>> Edited by henry-f on Friday 21st April 09:42
Something like a strut brace on your car isn`t going to make any difference if the the strut tops are being insulated from movement by a tired or soggy suspension.
It is possible (and desirable) to still keep the ride complient but to support the car more when cornering. The 993 does tend to roll more than, say a 964. We`ve had some cracking 993`s through our hands ride-wise some of which were bought of people who post here. The last one I can think of has now been replaced by a rather orange (in a Zanzibar kind of way) GT3.
Henry
>> Edited by henry-f on Friday 21st April 09:42
taipan said:
At speed the front always feels vague / light as if it is going to run wide at any moment.
Feel blessed! A 993 TT (on stock suspension) WILL run wide on corners. It's one of the most dissappointing things of the car. I think it understeers more than my old 928 and certainly more than my neutral 24 year old E21 Bimmer.
I've resisted changing the suspension however because I value the ride comfort unfortunately......
Had a 993 C2 and it felt vague and light at higher speeds. Got the front lowered so it was 5mm lower than the rear by a specialist and fitted a strut brace. It was a different car afterwards.
The problem is the back end sinks after a while, due to the weight distribution. Get the suspension reset, with the front lower (flying wedge), stuff on a strut brace and have the tracking and wheel balance done. (Only my opinion, of course).
If you still don't like it, go to the doctors and have yourself checked out.
The problem is the back end sinks after a while, due to the weight distribution. Get the suspension reset, with the front lower (flying wedge), stuff on a strut brace and have the tracking and wheel balance done. (Only my opinion, of course).
If you still don't like it, go to the doctors and have yourself checked out.
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