Where to learn how to hide your assets
Discussion
Hi,
Some seriously wealthy people hide the ownership of tehir assets. Examples that come to mind are Nick Van Hoogstraten and Shirley Porter who famously ended up in court over the votes scandal. Despite her being very wealthy, nobody was able to identify assets of hers to cover £26.5 million despite her being reportedly worth more. She had used clever mechanisms to hide their ownership:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1...
Nick Van Hoogstraten made the Guinness book of Records for the largest IR settlement of about 5.5 million. He claimed that he was advised by the taxman off the record that if his assets weren't in his name, he'd be 5.5 million richer.
How do you hide the ownership of assets? I don't mean answers like put them in a trust or give them to relatives, I mean, how do you actually setiup the complicated mechanisms to mask their ownership whilst still having control.
I don't expect to get an answer here, but am more looking for a pointer to a good book where I can learn more.
Thanks!
Some seriously wealthy people hide the ownership of tehir assets. Examples that come to mind are Nick Van Hoogstraten and Shirley Porter who famously ended up in court over the votes scandal. Despite her being very wealthy, nobody was able to identify assets of hers to cover £26.5 million despite her being reportedly worth more. She had used clever mechanisms to hide their ownership:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1...
Nick Van Hoogstraten made the Guinness book of Records for the largest IR settlement of about 5.5 million. He claimed that he was advised by the taxman off the record that if his assets weren't in his name, he'd be 5.5 million richer.
How do you hide the ownership of assets? I don't mean answers like put them in a trust or give them to relatives, I mean, how do you actually setiup the complicated mechanisms to mask their ownership whilst still having control.
I don't expect to get an answer here, but am more looking for a pointer to a good book where I can learn more.
Thanks!
Don't bother trying. Never, ever pick a fight with The Revenue. They are immensely powerful and all seeing, more so than the police and other agencies. I've looked at various offshore trusts, some are better than others, but no one can give you a 100% assurance the IR won't collar you in the end. As such, you'll end up saving the saved Tax just in case - so what's the point? And let's not even start talking about "retrospective laws" which the IR can (theoretically) introduce.
srebbe64 said:
Don't bother trying. Never, ever pick a fight with The Revenue. They are immensely powerful and all seeing, more so than the police and other agencies. I've looked at various offshore trusts, some are better than others, but no one can give you a 100% assurance the IR won't collar you in the end. As such, you'll end up saving the saved Tax just in case - so what's the point? And let's not even start talking about "retrospective laws" which the IR can (theoretically) introduce.
I'm not looking to learn about offshore trusts to hide my income or indeed other ways to hide my income or liquid assets. There are ways to very effectively distance ownership of your assets from yourself and this is what I'm looking to learn about.Eric Mc said:
If you are aware of the "other" ways, why are you asking here?
Most techniques for "deceiving" the Revenue are complicated, expensive to administer and borderline legal (if not downright illegal) which makes them vulnerable to Revenue investigation.
As per my original question I'm looking for a book on how to hide ownerships of assets like a house. These 2 are the nearest I've found, but I'm looking for recommendationsMost techniques for "deceiving" the Revenue are complicated, expensive to administer and borderline legal (if not downright illegal) which makes them vulnerable to Revenue investigation.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hide-Assets-Disappear-Step...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Asset-Protection-Complete-...
If anyone does know of any more suitable books, please let me know!
Edited by CIS121 on Thursday 8th November 22:16
I think this is an area thats going to see a Revenue clamp down quite soon after they've finished chasing subcontractors.
I say this without insider knowledge, but simply because over the last 6 months or so I've had 3 or 4 mailshots from different companies all offering me tax dodging trusts for income and assets.
When something becomes so common place, its not possible for it to stay off the revenue's radar imho.
Anyways, back on topic, I would imagine a very clued up tax department might be able to advise on this. Our (more accurately, my parents) IFA has fed them snippets in the past for such things and I believe their accountants tax department are talking to them about a few things today on it.
Forgetting the revenue, could this protect one's assets from a divorce
I say this without insider knowledge, but simply because over the last 6 months or so I've had 3 or 4 mailshots from different companies all offering me tax dodging trusts for income and assets.
When something becomes so common place, its not possible for it to stay off the revenue's radar imho.
Anyways, back on topic, I would imagine a very clued up tax department might be able to advise on this. Our (more accurately, my parents) IFA has fed them snippets in the past for such things and I believe their accountants tax department are talking to them about a few things today on it.
Forgetting the revenue, could this protect one's assets from a divorce
Wouldnt suggest learning from books either, if your serious about it then pay for specialist advice, would say to pick a reputable firm who guarantee there proposal. The reason being is that I met one of the big four accountancy firms regarding tax strategy and they came up with a great suggestion, however if it all went tits up you had no recourse with them, Have since met with another company who defend there proposal to the high court if it goes wrong which is somewhat more secure frim my point of view.
FUBAR said:
PetrolTed said:
Probably not a good start to ask on an internet forum 
Indeed. A better course of action would be to PM Ted direct and ask him how/where he stashed all his ill-gotten gains 
emicen said:
I think this is an area thats going to see a Revenue clamp down quite soon after they've finished chasing subcontractors.
I say this without insider knowledge, but simply because over the last 6 months or so I've had 3 or 4 mailshots from different companies all offering me tax dodging trusts for income and assets.
When something becomes so common place, its not possible for it to stay off the revenue's radar imho.
It's pretty widely known that the top accountancy firms were summoned to number 11 a few years ago and told to stop promoting such schemes. The perceived implication of the threat was that if they persisted in aggressively offering such schemes then government contracts (auditing, consulting, etc..) may not come there way. Following this many of the smaller companies began to fill the void. I say this without insider knowledge, but simply because over the last 6 months or so I've had 3 or 4 mailshots from different companies all offering me tax dodging trusts for income and assets.
When something becomes so common place, its not possible for it to stay off the revenue's radar imho.
Hi guys,
Lots of comments, so I'll try to address them in one post:
"Are those books American?"
Yes if they were British, I'd buy them hence why I'm looking for advice.
"Forgetting the revenue, could this protect one's assets from a divorce"
Yes. It is possible to hide your assets such as companies, property etc and protection from litigation is one of the main reasons for doing so. Now, your wife would have to identify and untangle ownership of these assets, so it would depend on how much you told her.
"Wouldnt suggest learning from books either, if your serious about it then pay for specialist advice, would say to pick a reputable firm who guarantee there proposal"
I've spoken with my accountancy firm and they've advised it's possible, but they don't know how to do so. Learning from books suits me. When I first employed an accountant years ago, I spent a few months of hard work, learning about accountancy first which allowed me to pick a knowledgable accountant plus I understand my company accounts very well. I do want to get a book to elarn from initially.
It's looking like a no then to a pointer for a good book :-(
Lots of comments, so I'll try to address them in one post:
"Are those books American?"
Yes if they were British, I'd buy them hence why I'm looking for advice.
"Forgetting the revenue, could this protect one's assets from a divorce"
Yes. It is possible to hide your assets such as companies, property etc and protection from litigation is one of the main reasons for doing so. Now, your wife would have to identify and untangle ownership of these assets, so it would depend on how much you told her.
"Wouldnt suggest learning from books either, if your serious about it then pay for specialist advice, would say to pick a reputable firm who guarantee there proposal"
I've spoken with my accountancy firm and they've advised it's possible, but they don't know how to do so. Learning from books suits me. When I first employed an accountant years ago, I spent a few months of hard work, learning about accountancy first which allowed me to pick a knowledgable accountant plus I understand my company accounts very well. I do want to get a book to elarn from initially.
It's looking like a no then to a pointer for a good book :-(
CIS121 said:
I've spoken with my accountancy firm and they've advised it's possible, but they don't know how to do so. Learning from books suits me. When I first employed an accountant years ago, I spent a few months of hard work, learning about accountancy first which allowed me to pick a knowledgable accountant plus I understand my company accounts very well. I do want to get a book to elarn from initially.
Did anyone else notice the irony tucked away in that sentence! 
Really depends what you are actually trying to achieve. Is this to shelter assets or income, or both?
Had you been interested a while back there was a particularly useful scheme which involved purchasing a second hand excluded property trust, though this was expensive, the benefits for the sufficiently wealthy were staggering. Sadly, like most very effective schemes which exploit holes in exisitng legislation, the revenue moves to alter said legislation so this is no longer available.
If you are wealthy enough that it will make a serious difference then surely you can afford to seek out an IFA and/or accountant who specialise in this area. Recommendations here would be very useful. If you don't fall into this bracket, then I would be tempted to heed Eric's advice and steer clear of something which is likely to be costly, complicated and potentially contentious.
I understand your admirable desire to learn prior to taking any steps towards your goal, but be aware this is a very specialist area and as a previous poster mentioned, schemes are not made public as they suit so few individuals there would be little point.
Also, why would any specialists in this area give out valuable intellectual property for free? I am currently working on an IHT avoidance scheme which involves use of ones principle private residence (something that the government/revenue has progressively made more difficult over the last few years) when I am comfortable that it is not contentious and that it is effective I will be selectively telling those whom it may suit what they may gain from it.
I would be rather reticent about publically spreading the word as this would deny me a competitive advantage. Though in reality this would not be an issue in respect of someone who is not in the industry as you wouldn't be able to find out about it. Which brings me back to the point: you are unlikely to be able to find much on these schemes without some serious time digging, or biting the bullet and seeking help form a professional.
Hope this makes some sense!
Had you been interested a while back there was a particularly useful scheme which involved purchasing a second hand excluded property trust, though this was expensive, the benefits for the sufficiently wealthy were staggering. Sadly, like most very effective schemes which exploit holes in exisitng legislation, the revenue moves to alter said legislation so this is no longer available.
If you are wealthy enough that it will make a serious difference then surely you can afford to seek out an IFA and/or accountant who specialise in this area. Recommendations here would be very useful. If you don't fall into this bracket, then I would be tempted to heed Eric's advice and steer clear of something which is likely to be costly, complicated and potentially contentious.
I understand your admirable desire to learn prior to taking any steps towards your goal, but be aware this is a very specialist area and as a previous poster mentioned, schemes are not made public as they suit so few individuals there would be little point.
Also, why would any specialists in this area give out valuable intellectual property for free? I am currently working on an IHT avoidance scheme which involves use of ones principle private residence (something that the government/revenue has progressively made more difficult over the last few years) when I am comfortable that it is not contentious and that it is effective I will be selectively telling those whom it may suit what they may gain from it.
I would be rather reticent about publically spreading the word as this would deny me a competitive advantage. Though in reality this would not be an issue in respect of someone who is not in the industry as you wouldn't be able to find out about it. Which brings me back to the point: you are unlikely to be able to find much on these schemes without some serious time digging, or biting the bullet and seeking help form a professional.
Hope this makes some sense!
JD247 said:
Really depends what you are actually trying to achieve. Is this to shelter assets or income, or both?
Had you been interested a while back there was a particularly useful scheme which involved purchasing a second hand excluded property trust, though this was expensive, the benefits for the sufficiently wealthy were staggering. Sadly, like most very effective schemes which exploit holes in exisitng legislation, the revenue moves to alter said legislation so this is no longer available.
If you are wealthy enough that it will make a serious difference then surely you can afford to seek out an IFA and/or accountant who specialise in this area. Recommendations here would be very useful. If you don't fall into this bracket, then I would be tempted to heed Eric's advice and steer clear of something which is likely to be costly, complicated and potentially contentious.
I understand your admirable desire to learn prior to taking any steps towards your goal, but be aware this is a very specialist area and as a previous poster mentioned, schemes are not made public as they suit so few individuals there would be little point.
Also, why would any specialists in this area give out valuable intellectual property for free? I am currently working on an IHT avoidance scheme which involves use of ones principle private residence (something that the government/revenue has progressively made more difficult over the last few years) when I am comfortable that it is not contentious and that it is effective I will be selectively telling those whom it may suit what they may gain from it.
I would be rather reticent about publically spreading the word as this would deny me a competitive advantage. Though in reality this would not be an issue in respect of someone who is not in the industry as you wouldn't be able to find out about it. Which brings me back to the point: you are unlikely to be able to find much on these schemes without some serious time digging, or biting the bullet and seeking help form a professional.
Hope this makes some sense!
What do you do for a living sir? I'm guessing IFA/tax accountant?Had you been interested a while back there was a particularly useful scheme which involved purchasing a second hand excluded property trust, though this was expensive, the benefits for the sufficiently wealthy were staggering. Sadly, like most very effective schemes which exploit holes in exisitng legislation, the revenue moves to alter said legislation so this is no longer available.
If you are wealthy enough that it will make a serious difference then surely you can afford to seek out an IFA and/or accountant who specialise in this area. Recommendations here would be very useful. If you don't fall into this bracket, then I would be tempted to heed Eric's advice and steer clear of something which is likely to be costly, complicated and potentially contentious.
I understand your admirable desire to learn prior to taking any steps towards your goal, but be aware this is a very specialist area and as a previous poster mentioned, schemes are not made public as they suit so few individuals there would be little point.
Also, why would any specialists in this area give out valuable intellectual property for free? I am currently working on an IHT avoidance scheme which involves use of ones principle private residence (something that the government/revenue has progressively made more difficult over the last few years) when I am comfortable that it is not contentious and that it is effective I will be selectively telling those whom it may suit what they may gain from it.
I would be rather reticent about publically spreading the word as this would deny me a competitive advantage. Though in reality this would not be an issue in respect of someone who is not in the industry as you wouldn't be able to find out about it. Which brings me back to the point: you are unlikely to be able to find much on these schemes without some serious time digging, or biting the bullet and seeking help form a professional.
Hope this makes some sense!
[always curious on threads like these because people post up good info but you have no idea of their background if it isnt in their profile]
JD247 said:
Really depends what you are actually trying to achieve. Is this to shelter assets or income, or both?
Had you been interested a while back there was a particularly useful scheme which involved purchasing a second hand excluded property trust, though this was expensive, the benefits for the sufficiently wealthy were staggering. Sadly, like most very effective schemes which exploit holes in exisitng legislation, the revenue moves to alter said legislation so this is no longer available.
If you are wealthy enough that it will make a serious difference then surely you can afford to seek out an IFA and/or accountant who specialise in this area. Recommendations here would be very useful. If you don't fall into this bracket, then I would be tempted to heed Eric's advice and steer clear of something which is likely to be costly, complicated and potentially contentious.
I understand your admirable desire to learn prior to taking any steps towards your goal, but be aware this is a very specialist area and as a previous poster mentioned, schemes are not made public as they suit so few individuals there would be little point.
Also, why would any specialists in this area give out valuable intellectual property for free? I am currently working on an IHT avoidance scheme which involves use of ones principle private residence (something that the government/revenue has progressively made more difficult over the last few years) when I am comfortable that it is not contentious and that it is effective I will be selectively telling those whom it may suit what they may gain from it.
I would be rather reticent about publically spreading the word as this would deny me a competitive advantage. Though in reality this would not be an issue in respect of someone who is not in the industry as you wouldn't be able to find out about it. Which brings me back to the point: you are unlikely to be able to find much on these schemes without some serious time digging, or biting the bullet and seeking help form a professional.
Hope this makes some sense!
Hi JD,Had you been interested a while back there was a particularly useful scheme which involved purchasing a second hand excluded property trust, though this was expensive, the benefits for the sufficiently wealthy were staggering. Sadly, like most very effective schemes which exploit holes in exisitng legislation, the revenue moves to alter said legislation so this is no longer available.
If you are wealthy enough that it will make a serious difference then surely you can afford to seek out an IFA and/or accountant who specialise in this area. Recommendations here would be very useful. If you don't fall into this bracket, then I would be tempted to heed Eric's advice and steer clear of something which is likely to be costly, complicated and potentially contentious.
I understand your admirable desire to learn prior to taking any steps towards your goal, but be aware this is a very specialist area and as a previous poster mentioned, schemes are not made public as they suit so few individuals there would be little point.
Also, why would any specialists in this area give out valuable intellectual property for free? I am currently working on an IHT avoidance scheme which involves use of ones principle private residence (something that the government/revenue has progressively made more difficult over the last few years) when I am comfortable that it is not contentious and that it is effective I will be selectively telling those whom it may suit what they may gain from it.
I would be rather reticent about publically spreading the word as this would deny me a competitive advantage. Though in reality this would not be an issue in respect of someone who is not in the industry as you wouldn't be able to find out about it. Which brings me back to the point: you are unlikely to be able to find much on these schemes without some serious time digging, or biting the bullet and seeking help form a professional.
Hope this makes some sense!
Many thanks for your post. We all miss off a little bit of tax here and there where it wont be noticed, but on the whole, I've never evaded any substantial tax of any type and have little interest in doing so. My interest is in distancing myself from il-liquid assets which include prperty and company ownership to put them beyond litigation. I have good reasons for doing so in the future that I'd rather not go into here. Going back to my question though, I am very interested in how such schemes work.
In recent years, as an example Nicholas Van Hoogstraten has managed to put his vast wealth beyond reach very effectively and in recent civil proceedigs over his manslaughter case the court hasn't been able to identify his assets including his £30 million mansion Hamilton Palace which is clearly owned by owned by him. I did a bit of digging on Companies House and the Land register and his properties are owned by various UK limited companies. One of the companies named Tombstone Ltd has many proeprties recorded against it in the company Record. The sole sharehoder used to be Nicholas Von Hessen which is an alias he uses for himself although this was enough to put the company and properties beyond the reach of others. How this works I fail to see as there is no such person and surely the company can be traced back to him as he has simply transferred it and I doubt can prove money has exchanged hands. I simply don't see how what he has done has distanced himself from this company, but court proceedings show that it has and that the company coudlnt' be identified as being owned by him. Another example is that of his Uckfield estate High Cross Park which is owned by a company of his called Rarebargain Ltd, but this ownership can't be traced back to him to identify the proeprty as his.
I've tried posting on taxationweb about this before and not got anywhere. It's pretty clear to me that there whilst there are US books that cover hiding assets there, there arent' any such for the UK. What are the rules on accountant confidentiality? I'm well aware that under certain circumstances they have obligations to report their clients, for example under the money laundering regualtions and if the Police require infomration from them. I presume there are also court disclosure orders that can be used against them?
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