Secondhand car price crash?
Discussion
Deep Thought said:
It is well worth noting that the WBAC price is not the trade price of that car.
Its auction price minus margin for error minus their costs minus their profit margin minus whatever they want to take off as risk mitigation which i suspect is quite a bit on that.
Not only that but it also depends how many cars they happen to have hanging about, requirements for volume at BCA, logistic availablity etc.Its auction price minus margin for error minus their costs minus their profit margin minus whatever they want to take off as risk mitigation which i suspect is quite a bit on that.
There are periods when WBAC just don't want any cars for whatever reason so rather than saying that and ruining their brand just offer silly money.
confused_buyer said:
Deep Thought said:
It is well worth noting that the WBAC price is not the trade price of that car.
Its auction price minus margin for error minus their costs minus their profit margin minus whatever they want to take off as risk mitigation which i suspect is quite a bit on that.
Not only that but it also depends how many cars they happen to have hanging about, requirements for volume at BCA, logistic availablity etc.Its auction price minus margin for error minus their costs minus their profit margin minus whatever they want to take off as risk mitigation which i suspect is quite a bit on that.
There are periods when WBAC just don't want any cars for whatever reason so rather than saying that and ruining their brand just offer silly money.
Remember at times, certain garages refuse to even take a Px if stock levels on certain cars are high.
GT4RS said:
WBAC are one of the biggest trade buyer of cars in the Uk, it wasn’t that long ago they were buying cars at a higher trade price than dealers were offering, this was due them having greater price data than the run of the mill used stock buyer in a independent garage or franchise.
They may still be paying more, the difference is the public can see the trade price due WBAC business model, size and scale of them.
Any company with any sense buying in a trade car will factor in, margin for error, their costs, profit margin, whatever they want to take off as risk mitigation. The difference is WBAC sell their stock on quickly for a low margin back into the trade via the auctions.
Broadly speaking the trade will use CAP Clean as their rule of thumb. They will likely want cars at a small % under that, minus any prep the car also needs.They may still be paying more, the difference is the public can see the trade price due WBAC business model, size and scale of them.
Any company with any sense buying in a trade car will factor in, margin for error, their costs, profit margin, whatever they want to take off as risk mitigation. The difference is WBAC sell their stock on quickly for a low margin back into the trade via the auctions.
WBAC are a buyer selling on at auction prices (which is what CAP is based on - Car Auction Prices) so they are going to have to buy in at wayyy below CAP clean to make a profit.
When WBAC were offering the strongest prices it was because they knew cars would make notably more than CAP Clean at auction, where dealers were offering CAP Clean on trade ins.
GT4RS said:
A friend of mine back in the early 2000s was an independent car trader, for a period of time he had a contract to buy all the stock from a few local main dealers. Back then his business model was to make a few hundred pounds per car and sell them straight into the trade locally. He did very well out.
Yes as did i for well over a decade. Actually around the same timeframe too. Maybe actually 1990 to mid 00's. I'd underwrite pretty much all the main dealers cheaper stuff for a big busy franchised dealer. I'd sell on either via gumtree, A/T or to other traders. For the dearer stuff they'd another buyer who bought from and sold on to the big garages. At that time they'd ring me, describe the car and get me to underwrite the deal. When the cars came in i'd go pick them up - unless it wasnt as described i was taking it and that was that, no ifs or buts. And yes a few £££ at a time adds up when you're doing decent volume. I then did it with another guy probably about 10 years ago and we bought from a few dealers but retailed stuff via our website, FB and AT. We did that for maybe 2-3 years.
Out of it now though and back in to IT Consultancy. I've still the trade contacts and auction access but dont bother trading.
GT4RS said:
This applies to any independent garage or franchise, it’s no different. If dealers have stock or your car is undesirable you’re in for kicking no matter which trade outlet is offering to to buy it.
Remember at times, certain garages refuse to even take a Px if stock levels on certain cars are high.
Indeed. Which is why you wouldn't use the price just one dealer bid for your car as its definitive "trade" price. They are just one of many potential buyers and bidders on the day. The same applies to WBAC. Remember at times, certain garages refuse to even take a Px if stock levels on certain cars are high.
av185 said:
NRG1976 said:
991.1 GT3
Retailing = £90k
WBAC trade = £60k.
Question is which one is a reflection of where the market should be? I cannot foresee a 991 GT3 being £60k anytime soon!
The mere fact that a new 992 GT3 is currently £146500 basic list means a relatively average mileage proper 991.1 GT3 will probably never dip below £75k even when the 15 year Porsche warranty expires.Retailing = £90k
WBAC trade = £60k.
Question is which one is a reflection of where the market should be? I cannot foresee a 991 GT3 being £60k anytime soon!
confused_buyer said:
GT4RS said:
This applies to any independent garage or franchise, it’s no different. If dealers have stock or your car is undesirable you’re in for kicking no matter which trade outlet is offering to to buy it.
Remember at times, certain garages refuse to even take a Px if stock levels on certain cars are high.
Indeed. Which is why you wouldn't use the price just one dealer bid for your car as its definitive "trade" price. They are just one of many potential buyers and bidders on the day. The same applies to WBAC. Remember at times, certain garages refuse to even take a Px if stock levels on certain cars are high.
Deep Thought said:
GT4RS said:
WBAC are one of the biggest trade buyer of cars in the Uk, it wasn’t that long ago they were buying cars at a higher trade price than dealers were offering, this was due them having greater price data than the run of the mill used stock buyer in a independent garage or franchise.
They may still be paying more, the difference is the public can see the trade price due WBAC business model, size and scale of them.
Any company with any sense buying in a trade car will factor in, margin for error, their costs, profit margin, whatever they want to take off as risk mitigation. The difference is WBAC sell their stock on quickly for a low margin back into the trade via the auctions.
Broadly speaking the trade will use CAP Clean as their rule of thumb. They will likely want cars at a small % under that, minus any prep the car also needs.They may still be paying more, the difference is the public can see the trade price due WBAC business model, size and scale of them.
Any company with any sense buying in a trade car will factor in, margin for error, their costs, profit margin, whatever they want to take off as risk mitigation. The difference is WBAC sell their stock on quickly for a low margin back into the trade via the auctions.
WBAC are a buyer selling on at auction prices (which is what CAP is based on - Car Auction Prices) so they are going to have to buy in at wayyy below CAP clean to make a profit.
When WBAC were offering the strongest prices it was because they knew cars would make notably more than CAP Clean at auction, where dealers were offering CAP Clean on trade ins.
GT4RS said:
A friend of mine back in the early 2000s was an independent car trader, for a period of time he had a contract to buy all the stock from a few local main dealers. Back then his business model was to make a few hundred pounds per car and sell them straight into the trade locally. He did very well out.
Yes as did i for well over a decade. Actually around the same timeframe too. Maybe actually 1990 to mid 00's. I'd underwrite pretty much all the main dealers cheaper stuff for a big busy franchised dealer. I'd sell on either via gumtree, A/T or to other traders. For the dearer stuff they'd another buyer who bought from and sold on to the big garages. At that time they'd ring me, describe the car and get me to underwrite the deal. When the cars came in i'd go pick them up - unless it wasnt as described i was taking it and that was that, no ifs or buts. And yes a few £££ at a time adds up when you're doing decent volume. I then did it with another guy probably about 10 years ago and we bought from a few dealers but retailed stuff via our website, FB and AT. We did that for maybe 2-3 years.
Out of it now though and back in to IT Consultancy. I've still the trade contacts and auction access but dont bother trading.
I’ve always personally never failed to sell a car privately or into the trade at a fair price. The only car which was hard to sell was my PDK gt4 which shocked me.
NRG1976 said:
I think there was one at Ashgood Cars which sold for £79k, so £75k may not be too far away depending on spec.
Very spec sensitive with bucket CS and ceramic braked cars worth up to 12% more than comforts with steels.£100500 basic new in 2013, very few cars were specced over £125k including pts cars.
Plenty of white 991.1 GT3s about (although only 332 UK cars in total) mainly flat Carrara white but metallic white was a cost option and quite rare) it was the most popular colour new but not used (in contrast the 991.2 GT3 C White was third least popular colour new so alot less choice used).
Dingle Dell said:
These are really appealing to me, but they just don't seem to be shifting; not that they ever sold in big numbers. I think i'll be holding off and seeing what happens over the next few months.
I’ve got one and do watch the cars for sale come and go, or in this case come - the silver one is a bit of a tricky sell - 2020 so it just missed out on CarPlay and the 2021 tweaks, of the two extras LC500 can be optioned with it has neither, and the colour is a bit meh. And the ad stating CarPlay is available as a retro fit - errr no it’s not, not in the UK anyway. Unless it involves Amazon and some sucker mounts.Got mine in Feb - there’s been a gradual slide in values over the past few months and I’d guess cars will drop faster now the winter is coming.
Oh, and yes, get one! 10 year warranty, no turbos, no stop start and a great noise.
av185 said:
NRG1976 said:
I think there was one at Ashgood Cars which sold for £79k, so £75k may not be too far away depending on spec.
Very spec sensitive with bucket CS and ceramic braked cars worth up to 12% more than comforts with steels.£100500 basic new in 2013, very few cars were specced over £125k including pts cars.
Plenty of white 991.1 GT3s about (although only 332 UK cars in total) mainly flat Carrara white but metallic white was a cost option and quite rare) it was the most popular colour new but not used (in contrast the 991.2 GT3 C White was third least popular colour new so alot less choice used).
Only 332 Uk 991.1 gt3 and close to 1057 Uk 718 gt4 cars and more 718 gt4 to be added to how many left as it runs months behind!
GT4RS said:
av185 said:
NRG1976 said:
I think there was one at Ashgood Cars which sold for £79k, so £75k may not be too far away depending on spec.
Very spec sensitive with bucket CS and ceramic braked cars worth up to 12% more than comforts with steels.£100500 basic new in 2013, very few cars were specced over £125k including pts cars.
Plenty of white 991.1 GT3s about (although only 332 UK cars in total) mainly flat Carrara white but metallic white was a cost option and quite rare) it was the most popular colour new but not used (in contrast the 991.2 GT3 C White was third least popular colour new so alot less choice used).
Only 332 Uk 991.1 gt3 and close to 1057 Uk 718 gt4 cars and more 718 gt4 to be added to how many left as it runs months behind!
What WILL be interesting with final GT4 numbers last month is whether as predicted there will actually be more PDKs than manuals at the end of the run as up 2nd quarter end there were 660 UK manuals and 513 PDKs but given most of the final cars were PDK it looks like there will more than manual overall also reflected in around 2 to 3 times as many OPC cars for sale used.
andy43 said:
I’ve got one and do watch the cars for sale come and go, or in this case come - the silver one is a bit of a tricky sell - 2020 so it just missed out on CarPlay and the 2021 tweaks, of the two extras LC500 can be optioned with it has neither, and the colour is a bit meh. And the ad stating CarPlay is available as a retro fit - errr no it’s not, not in the UK anyway. Unless it involves Amazon and some sucker mounts.
Got mine in Feb - there’s been a gradual slide in values over the past few months and I’d guess cars will drop faster now the winter is coming.
Oh, and yes, get one! 10 year warranty, no turbos, no stop start and a great noise.
I really feel like it ticks all the boxes for me, and all ownership comments I see are positive, so right now it's hard to think of why I wouldn't buy one. That being said, i'm in no rush, and my fixed term investments become free next March, which should be good timing. I had decided it would have to be a 21 or later as the revisions seemed to be very positive, and I agree the silver does the car no favours. I actually like the car in white (unusual for me), and the red looks good too. I dropped by my local Lexus dealer and the reception I got was top notch. Not pushy but happy to spend time and chat about the cars.Got mine in Feb - there’s been a gradual slide in values over the past few months and I’d guess cars will drop faster now the winter is coming.
Oh, and yes, get one! 10 year warranty, no turbos, no stop start and a great noise.
Edited by Dingle Dell on Monday 20th November 20:26
GT4RS said:
From what I understand WBAC has quite a sizeable control of the trade market nowadays, the general public see them as an easy way out of a car at what is a trade buy it now price. Years ago dealers and traders had control of a fair proportion of the market, since WBAC grew to the giant they are now these dealers and traders don’t have as much control. Sadly I’ve sat in a OPC and been quoted well that’s the WBAC value so that’s what we will pay for it. From what I understand this is more common nowadays since the growth of WBAC.
I’ve always personally never failed to sell a car privately or into the trade at a fair price. The only car which was hard to sell was my PDK gt4 which shocked me.
I'd be surprised if WBAC hold more than 5% of the market.I’ve always personally never failed to sell a car privately or into the trade at a fair price. The only car which was hard to sell was my PDK gt4 which shocked me.
They certainly don't positively impact used car values and dealer prices are often better.
They do offer a quick easy way to sell a car, even if it's likely at the worst possible price.
Dealers never "controlled" prices and WBAC don't either.
Deep Thought said:
GT4RS said:
From what I understand WBAC has quite a sizeable control of the trade market nowadays, the general public see them as an easy way out of a car at what is a trade buy it now price. Years ago dealers and traders had control of a fair proportion of the market, since WBAC grew to the giant they are now these dealers and traders don’t have as much control. Sadly I’ve sat in a OPC and been quoted well that’s the WBAC value so that’s what we will pay for it. From what I understand this is more common nowadays since the growth of WBAC.
I’ve always personally never failed to sell a car privately or into the trade at a fair price. The only car which was hard to sell was my PDK gt4 which shocked me.
I'd be surprised if WBAC hold more than 5% of the market.I’ve always personally never failed to sell a car privately or into the trade at a fair price. The only car which was hard to sell was my PDK gt4 which shocked me.
They certainly don't positively impact used car values and dealer prices are often better.
They do offer a quick easy way to sell a car, even if it's likely at the worst possible price.
Dealers never "controlled" prices and WBAC don't either.
The amount of people I know who have sold to wbac is quite surprising, one used it as a car had a fault, wasn’t a cheap car but out of warranty and the value they offered the high repair cost needed. Others used it for ease and a fair price.
People may not like them as WBAC are now hedging their bets on the cautious side, but they most certainly have changed how the public sell their used cars in a big way in the Uk.
av185 said:
GT4RS said:
av185 said:
NRG1976 said:
I think there was one at Ashgood Cars which sold for £79k, so £75k may not be too far away depending on spec.
Very spec sensitive with bucket CS and ceramic braked cars worth up to 12% more than comforts with steels.£100500 basic new in 2013, very few cars were specced over £125k including pts cars.
Plenty of white 991.1 GT3s about (although only 332 UK cars in total) mainly flat Carrara white but metallic white was a cost option and quite rare) it was the most popular colour new but not used (in contrast the 991.2 GT3 C White was third least popular colour new so alot less choice used).
Only 332 Uk 991.1 gt3 and close to 1057 Uk 718 gt4 cars and more 718 gt4 to be added to how many left as it runs months behind!
What WILL be interesting with final GT4 numbers last month is whether as predicted there will actually be more PDKs than manuals at the end of the run as up 2nd quarter end there were 660 UK manuals and 513 PDKs but given most of the final cars were PDK it looks like there will more than manual overall also reflected in around 2 to 3 times as many OPC cars for sale used.
The 718 pdk gt4 is a cracking car.
GT4RS said:
A used car is only worth what someone is willing to pay and most people opt for the easy way out and Px to a dealer, trader or WBAC. This dictates the market, when these people slow down their buying, values fall as more cars become available. The knock on affect of their actions control the market values. I would imagine this is what we are seeing now.
The amount of people I know who have sold to wbac is quite surprising, one used it as a car had a fault, wasn’t a cheap car but out of warranty and the value they offered the high repair cost needed. Others used it for ease and a fair price.
People may not like them as WBAC are now hedging their bets on the cautious side, but they most certainly have changed how the public sell their used cars in a big way in the Uk.
I would concur with much of that. The amount of people I know who have sold to wbac is quite surprising, one used it as a car had a fault, wasn’t a cheap car but out of warranty and the value they offered the high repair cost needed. Others used it for ease and a fair price.
People may not like them as WBAC are now hedging their bets on the cautious side, but they most certainly have changed how the public sell their used cars in a big way in the Uk.
WBAC have been strong on valuations for the last couple of years. They're now falling back to how they were before - worse than trade prices but at least you get a quick sale.
I think where they've had the most impact is in the private sale market. People would rather sell to WBAC or one of the other online buyers than face having to sell their car privately. Too much grief these days and too many scams. The number of private sellers these days on AT is tiny compared to what it was. FB is a minefield of scammers and time wasters.
Deep Thought said:
GT4RS said:
A used car is only worth what someone is willing to pay and most people opt for the easy way out and Px to a dealer, trader or WBAC. This dictates the market, when these people slow down their buying, values fall as more cars become available. The knock on affect of their actions control the market values. I would imagine this is what we are seeing now.
The amount of people I know who have sold to wbac is quite surprising, one used it as a car had a fault, wasn’t a cheap car but out of warranty and the value they offered the high repair cost needed. Others used it for ease and a fair price.
People may not like them as WBAC are now hedging their bets on the cautious side, but they most certainly have changed how the public sell their used cars in a big way in the Uk.
I would concur with much of that. The amount of people I know who have sold to wbac is quite surprising, one used it as a car had a fault, wasn’t a cheap car but out of warranty and the value they offered the high repair cost needed. Others used it for ease and a fair price.
People may not like them as WBAC are now hedging their bets on the cautious side, but they most certainly have changed how the public sell their used cars in a big way in the Uk.
WBAC have been strong on valuations for the last couple of years. They're now falling back to how they were before - worse than trade prices but at least you get a quick sale.
I think where they've had the most impact is in the private sale market. People would rather sell to WBAC or one of the other online buyers than face having to sell their car privately. Too much grief these days and too many scams. The number of private sellers these days on AT is tiny compared to what it was. FB is a minefield of scammers and time wasters.
The last 4 Porsches I’ve sold personally have all been direct to the trade.
I recently advertised a classic car I own, took it down after 24 hours due to all the idiots. Put it back in the garage and put the cover back over it, just wasn’t worth the hassle or time.
Dingle Dell said:
I really feel like it ticks all the boxes for me, and all ownership comments I see are positive, so right now it's hard to think of why I wouldn't buy one. That being said, i'm in no rush, and my fixed term investments become free next March, which should be good timing. I had decided it would have to be a 21 or later as the revisions seemed to be very positive, and I agree the silver does the car no favours. I actually like the car in white (unusual for me), and the red looks good too. I dropped by my local Lexus dealer and the reception I got was top notch. Not pushy but happy to spend time and chat about the cars.
Have you driven one?Edited by Dingle Dell on Monday 20th November 20:26
I test drove one and it was excellent, the perfect size and power. Rear wheel steer made it feel nimble and high quality interior. Only downside was the boot space.
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