EVs... no one wants them!

EVs... no one wants them!

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Mikehig

813 posts

67 months

Sunday 19th November 2023
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GT9 said:
To be clear, my point is that carbon footprint of e-fuel has a high entry point, either because the fuel is reconstituted natural gas (i.e. blue or grey hydrogen) combined with CO2 of questionable source, or the manufacturing and installation footprint of the very substantial new infrastructure required to produce it truly renewably has its own high footprint (on a per litre basis).
The timeline to get to low carbon e-fuel is too long and too expensive to save the majority of existing ICEs.
If we are talking a handful of TVRs, petrol probably achieves the same carbon footprint per litre for the foreseeable future.
in which case, what exactly is the point other than profiteering?
This article illustrates the "very substantial new infrastructure" for Direct Air Capture:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/1...
The energy consumption must be huge as well - excavating, transporting, crushing and then heating tons of limestone to 1600 deg C
In terms of the energy returned on the energy invested, making fuel using such a process must be hugely negative.

tamore

7,782 posts

290 months

Monday 20th November 2023
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there are a few ideas which would allow the continued use of fossil fuels and/or combustion engines. none of them make any sense from an energy use perspective.

otolith

58,722 posts

210 months

Monday 20th November 2023
quotequote all
GT9 said:
otolith said:
I think perhaps they accidentally bought a lead-acid powered milk float.
Careful, ban hammer fell on last poster who mentioned that word.
TBF, you'd probably need to post it another 374 times to catch up with him.
They probably weren't using it in the context of something that apparently has worse charging characteristics than one! (8 hours and 60 miles, apparently)

Mikehig

813 posts

67 months

Tuesday 21st November 2023
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tamore said:
loudlashadjuster said:
1 megawatt, maybe wink
yes…. 1000 of them. throughout germany.
That's a heck of a load!
Is there some sort of davit or mechanical assistance - must be a monster cable?

RizzoTheRat

25,949 posts

198 months

Tuesday 21st November 2023
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soxboy said:
The Germans are also trialing electrified roads for trucks, seems like a sensible way to do it to me, use the pantograph on the autobahn and then switch to battery for last few miles



Essarell

1,578 posts

60 months

Tuesday 21st November 2023
quotequote all
RizzoTheRat said:
soxboy said:
The Germans are also trialing electrified roads for trucks, seems like a sensible way to do it to me, use the pantograph on the autobahn and then switch to battery for last few miles

Seems sensible but energy costs in Germany are pretty high.

TikTak

1,784 posts

25 months

Tuesday 21st November 2023
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DriveSnowdonia said:
Would hate to think how much that would cost to install across the UK motorway network, plus the huge cost to maintain such infrastructure and the potential for accidents or weather related damage to cause chaos. And how much would the carbon footprint be to manufacture all of that steel - in China of course as the UK is busy dismantling our steel production capacity?
Pretty much what I was going to put. I can see it now.

I'd expect us to come up with some eye watering price like £80bn to complete all the major routes and complete in 20 years.

Fast forward to 2045, the M1 has been totally unusable for 20 years, with only a 100 mile stretch complete. They did manage between Heathrow and Gatwick on the M25 too but also set a record with a traffic jam that lasted 14 days and claimed 26 lives. A good portion of the M6 toll is complete but it's now £102.25 per trip.

Whole thing already cost £170bn too.


DJMC

3,505 posts

109 months

Tuesday 21st November 2023
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RizzoTheRat said:
soxboy said:
The Germans are also trialing electrified roads for trucks, seems like a sensible way to do it to me, use the pantograph on the autobahn and then switch to battery for last few miles

The Americans first worked on the pantograph idea with the Dodge-M.

wink

FiF

45,388 posts

257 months

Tuesday 21st November 2023
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TikTak said:
DriveSnowdonia said:
Would hate to think how much that would cost to install across the UK motorway network, plus the huge cost to maintain such infrastructure and the potential for accidents or weather related damage to cause chaos. And how much would the carbon footprint be to manufacture all of that steel - in China of course as the UK is busy dismantling our steel production capacity?
Pretty much what I was going to put. I can see it now.

I'd expect us to come up with some eye watering price like £80bn to complete all the major routes and complete in 20 years.

Fast forward to 2045, the M1 has been totally unusable for 20 years, with only a 100 mile stretch complete. They did manage between Heathrow and Gatwick on the M25 too but also set a record with a traffic jam that lasted 14 days and claimed 26 lives. A good portion of the M6 toll is complete but it's now £102.25 per trip.

Whole thing already cost £170bn too.
Also you're forgetting the years of arguments about cancelling the project part way through but then you're into a sunk costs scenario.

And everything has an opportunity cost attached.

wyson

2,599 posts

110 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2023
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tamore said:
sounds a bit more like it, especially as germany are rolling out 1000 megawatt truck chargers.
1000 megawatts? Christ if they kitted them out with flux capacitors, they might be capable of time travel! It was 1.21 gigawatts wasn't it, so pretty close.

Edited by wyson on Wednesday 22 November 11:22

anonymous-user

60 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
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This’ll most likely generate lots of passive aggression from the usual suspects, hopefully directed towards the mayor of London

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/28/electr...

“ Vehicles with larger batteries are set to pay more due to having a higher carbon footprint during their construction, taking up more space and causing more wear and tear to the road.”

At last, some sense. Tax these monsters off the road.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th November 17:40

TTmonkey

20,911 posts

253 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
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We really don’t need massive batteries. We need faster charging. So I like that idea.

Earthdweller

14,306 posts

132 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
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https://x.com/gregkable/status/1729421585424027906...

Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand

The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.

anonymous-user

60 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
quotequote all
TTmonkey said:
We really don’t need massive batteries. We need faster charging. So I like that idea.
Or smaller cars, more appropriate for an urban environment. https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news-on-air/news/t...

otolith

58,722 posts

210 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
quotequote all
wormus said:
This’ll most likely generate lots of passive aggression from the usual suspects, hopefully directed towards the mayor of London

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/28/electr...

“ Vehicles with larger batteries are set to pay more due to having a higher carbon footprint during their construction, taking up more space and causing more wear and tear to the road.”

At last, some sense. Tax these monsters off the road.
Article seems a bit thin on what the charges for ICEs will be? Telegraph FUDding about EVs again?

Penny Whistle

5,783 posts

176 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
https://x.com/gregkable/status/1729421585424027906...

Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand

The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
That's dumb. How can the charger know how many km/kWh the plugged-in car will do ? If anything, the proposal would simply be to cap the charge rate at 5kW.

520TORQUES

6,291 posts

21 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
https://x.com/gregkable/status/1729421585424027906...

Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand

The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
There is already EU wide law in place that allows the restriction of all forms of energy if that will impact critical requirements. This is the latest draft for further changes coming for Germany.

Update of the integrated national Energy and climate plan

https://commission.europa.eu/system/files/2023-11/...

Since this was written the German courts have ruled that €60 billion of the funding is illegal and cannot be assigned, throwing the whole investment plan and government into chaos.

Edited by 520TORQUES on Tuesday 28th November 18:24

Earthdweller

14,306 posts

132 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
quotequote all
Penny Whistle said:
That's dumb. How can the charger know how many km/kWh the plugged-in car will do ? If anything, the proposal would simply be to cap the charge rate at 5kW.
Your asking me confused

samoht

6,226 posts

152 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
quotequote all
otolith said:
wormus said:
This’ll most likely generate lots of passive aggression from the usual suspects, hopefully directed towards the mayor of London

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/28/electr...

“ Vehicles with larger batteries are set to pay more due to having a higher carbon footprint during their construction, taking up more space and causing more wear and tear to the road.”

At last, some sense. Tax these monsters off the road.
Article seems a bit thin on what the charges for ICEs will be? Telegraph FUDding about EVs again?
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/sites/default/files...

Current annual resident permit is £166, or £117.50 for engines under 1200cc, EVs free.
The proposal is to put EVs into two lower bands of £40 or £80 for the year, the lower band for battery sizes under 70 kWh.

So a better summary might be 'Cash-strapped council considering charging residents for EV parking permits at 25% or 50% of the ICE rate depending on battery size".

Separately, for hourly on-street parking the current exemption which allows EVs to be parked for the maximum period after buying the minimum available ticket is to be withdrawn; EVs will now be charged £4.62 an hour to park, compared to a minimum of £5.28 an hour for the lowest-emitting ICEs.

Basically as with central govt they can see their revenue running away as people shift to EVs, so are taking steps to shore it up.



Edited by samoht on Tuesday 28th November 18:29

will32

19 posts

21 months

Tuesday 28th November 2023
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
https://x.com/gregkable/status/1729421585424027906...

Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand

The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
Only applies to non-public chargers, i.e home chargers. Most of which dont charge much faster than that anyways and are mostly utilised when the electricity capacity isnt strained (at night).
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