EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
survivalist said:
The problem is that it still doesn’t look very good compared to a whole load of ICE cars at a similar price point, which depreciate at a much lower rate.
Running costs are pretty much irrelevant at this price point as depreciation will trump the cost of fuel and servicing.
If anything, the discount shows you how undesirable they are.
If you can afford to drop 100+k on a car then fuel costs are irrelevant anyway.Running costs are pretty much irrelevant at this price point as depreciation will trump the cost of fuel and servicing.
If anything, the discount shows you how undesirable they are.
dmsims said:
Why do people keep buying diesel Range Rovers?
Big heavy cars, so the diesel isn’t a bad choice. A reasonable percentage will tow (maybe). BricktopST205 said:
If you can afford to drop 100+k on a car then fuel costs are irrelevant anyway.
Also not generally company cars, so emissions less of an issue.
nickfrog said:
I was thinking the same. No one has to like EVs, no one has to even buy them. Yet here we go, instead of saying "not for me", people just can't stop protesting with weird arguments but next to zero direct experience.
Why? (I have asked before but no comprehensible answer was given).
Well allow me to try and explain.Why? (I have asked before but no comprehensible answer was given).
Non EV enthusiasts such as myself explain why they don't want an EV but also state how happy they are for EV enthusiasts to exercise their choice.
This is unacceptable to EV enthusiasts. It can't be left there. They must prove that EVs are a better form of propulsion than ICE vehicles. Anyone arguing back is portrayed as stupid, naive, resistant to change, unqualified to judge, environmentally irresponsible and driving an inferior vehicle.
You need to ask yourself why my postion is broadly "crack on mate" whereas the EV fan feels the need to bludgeon my rejection of the EV offering into submission.
We are reaching peak EV when £60K and more versions are portrayed as all conquering heroes with otherworldly performance.
It reminds me very much of the pressure applied to unvaccinated people. Their view mirrored mine - crack on mate - based on the admission that the vax didn't prevent personal infection or transmission - but the opposing view that everyone had to be vaccinated had to be accepted as right. One group was good and one bad. Only one group didn't care what the other group did and one supported compulsion.
Please just accept that EVs aren't for everyone and not everyone wants one, regardless of the arguments. Drop the apparent need to convince people they're wrong, along with the hyperbole and superior tone. I don't see anyone trying to persuade people back into ICE. See the difference?
Unreal said:
nickfrog said:
I was thinking the same. No one has to like EVs, no one has to even buy them. Yet here we go, instead of saying "not for me", people just can't stop protesting with weird arguments but next to zero direct experience.
Why? (I have asked before but no comprehensible answer was given).
Well allow me to try and explain.Why? (I have asked before but no comprehensible answer was given).
Non EV enthusiasts such as myself explain why they don't want an EV but also state how happy they are for EV enthusiasts to exercise their choice.
This is unacceptable to EV enthusiasts. It can't be left there. They must prove that EVs are a better form of propulsion than ICE vehicles. Anyone arguing back is portrayed as stupid, naive, resistant to change, unqualified to judge, environmentally irresponsible and driving an inferior vehicle.
You need to ask yourself why my postion is broadly "crack on mate" whereas the EV fan feels the need to bludgeon my rejection of the EV offering into submission.
We are reaching peak EV when £60K and more versions are portrayed as all conquering heroes with otherworldly performance.
It reminds me very much of the pressure applied to unvaccinated people. Their view mirrored mine - crack on mate - based on the admission that the vax didn't prevent personal infection or transmission - but the opposing view that everyone had to be vaccinated had to be accepted as right. One group was good and one bad. Only one group didn't care what the other group did and one supported compulsion.
Please just accept that EVs aren't for everyone and not everyone wants one, regardless of the arguments. Drop the apparent need to convince people they're wrong, along with the hyperbole and superior tone. I don't see anyone trying to persuade people back into ICE. See the difference?
Prepare for a lecture very soon on how you are wrong...............................
dmsims said:
Why do people keep buying diesel Range Rovers?
Maybe because the range is an issue on the petrol variants? Diesel on a big heavy 2+ tonne SUV makes perfect sense. A petrol will be lucky to do 300 miles on a tank whereas a derv will do 450 miles. BricktopST205 said:
If you can afford to drop 100+k on a car then fuel costs are irrelevant anyway.
Unreal said:
nickfrog said:
I was thinking the same. No one has to like EVs, no one has to even buy them. Yet here we go, instead of saying "not for me", people just can't stop protesting with weird arguments but next to zero direct experience.
Why? (I have asked before but no comprehensible answer was given).
Well allow me to try and explain.Why? (I have asked before but no comprehensible answer was given).
Non EV enthusiasts such as myself explain why they don't want an EV but also state how happy they are for EV enthusiasts to exercise their choice.
This is unacceptable to EV enthusiasts. It can't be left there. They must prove that EVs are a better form of propulsion than ICE vehicles. Anyone arguing back is portrayed as stupid, naive, resistant to change, unqualified to judge, environmentally irresponsible and driving an inferior vehicle.
You need to ask yourself why my postion is broadly "crack on mate" whereas the EV fan feels the need to bludgeon my rejection of the EV offering into submission.
We are reaching peak EV when £60K and more versions are portrayed as all conquering heroes with otherworldly performance.
It reminds me very much of the pressure applied to unvaccinated people. Their view mirrored mine - crack on mate - based on the admission that the vax didn't prevent personal infection or transmission - but the opposing view that everyone had to be vaccinated had to be accepted as right. One group was good and one bad. Only one group didn't care what the other group did and one supported compulsion.
Please just accept that EVs aren't for everyone and not everyone wants one, regardless of the arguments. Drop the apparent need to convince people they're wrong, along with the hyperbole and superior tone. I don't see anyone trying to persuade people back into ICE. See the difference?
Just say "not for me" and ignore the small entrenched minority of EV fans who don't tolerate your views rather than join them in your own entrenched minority faction.
I am totally agnostic in this debate actually. But as an impartial observer I am far more impressed by the rationality of most EV users than by the fairly emotional and unhinged views of some of the opponents. Perhaps because the former have experience and the latter not much of it.
What I however note is that some of the most ardent and experienced EV fans are also ardent and experienced ICE fans. The reverse can't be said about the minority of opponents who often speak from no ownership experience. Wouldn't you agre?
Edited by nickfrog on Wednesday 22 May 22:35
nickfrog said:
What I however note is that some of the most ardent and experienced EV fans are also ardent and experienced ICE fans. The reverse can't be said about the minority of opponents who often speak from no ownership experience. Wouldn't you agre?
This is something I’ve noticed as well. Unreal said:
Well allow me to try and explain.
I don't see anyone trying to persuade people back into ICE. See the difference?
If only this was true.I don't see anyone trying to persuade people back into ICE. See the difference?
What riles EV enthusiasts is the endless stream of misinformation about EVs that is probably a large part of why sales have taken a hit. Those of us who have adopted one (often alongside their collection of what would be considered great ICE drivers cars and usually with a long history of driving sometimes very desirable ICE cars as has been pointed out) and found the reality to be very different (in a good way) feel motivated to point this out. A bit like reformed smokers possibly but no less genuine.
The reference to antivaxxers is not bad, amongst them are the professionally angry who feel permanently threatened, the easily led, but also more cynically the grifters who are in it to make a buck. ‘Dr’ Campbell is a good parallel for an oil company sponsored shill claiming that batteries will only last 3 years etc.
(BTW John Campbell is no more a doctor in this context than ‘Lord’ Aleem is a peer. Whether or not he’s technically entitled to use the moniker, its use in the context he posts in us likely to mislead, whether intentional or not.)
It’s not worth fretting about though, at some point, that 2030, 2035 or whenever, as anyone buying a new car will have to try one and make their own mind up.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Thursday 23 May 06:52
Unreal said:
nickfrog said:
I was thinking the same. No one has to like EVs, no one has to even buy them. Yet here we go, instead of saying "not for me", people just can't stop protesting with weird arguments but next to zero direct experience.
Why? (I have asked before but no comprehensible answer was given).
Well allow me to try and explain.Why? (I have asked before but no comprehensible answer was given).
Non EV enthusiasts such as myself explain why they don't want an EV but also state how happy they are for EV enthusiasts to exercise their choice.
This is unacceptable to EV enthusiasts. It can't be left there. They must prove that EVs are a better form of propulsion than ICE vehicles. Anyone arguing back is portrayed as stupid, naive, resistant to change, unqualified to judge, environmentally irresponsible and driving an inferior vehicle.
You need to ask yourself why my postion is broadly "crack on mate" whereas the EV fan feels the need to bludgeon my rejection of the EV offering into submission.
We are reaching peak EV when £60K and more versions are portrayed as all conquering heroes with otherworldly performance.
It reminds me very much of the pressure applied to unvaccinated people. Their view mirrored mine - crack on mate - based on the admission that the vax didn't prevent personal infection or transmission - but the opposing view that everyone had to be vaccinated had to be accepted as right. One group was good and one bad. Only one group didn't care what the other group did and one supported compulsion.
Please just accept that EVs aren't for everyone and not everyone wants one, regardless of the arguments. Drop the apparent need to convince people they're wrong, along with the hyperbole and superior tone. I don't see anyone trying to persuade people back into ICE. See the difference?
Instead we've got a load of people who don't want EVs (which in itself is fine) making up a bunch of lies and inventing niche or nonexistent scenarios to justify their choice.
We've got a bunch of people who don't want EVs (which is fine in itself) telling us why EVs are rubbish without any real world experience of them.
We've got a bunch of people who don't want EVs (which is fine in itself) doing their best to disprove mainstream, established science by reproducing spurious science that supports their bias.
This thread is flooded with people who don't want EVs who can't help themselves but keep coming back (and keep registering new accounts) to repeat the same falsehoods and niche scenarios to justify their position.
If those people could just settle at "I don't want an EV because I prefer my ice car", then there would be no argument or debate, because that's just personal preference and that's absolutely fine. But they don't.
And EV owners, with real world experience, who are disputing the nonsense I've listed above are being called zealots and bigots.
Finally, it's nothing like vaccination at all, no matter how much your persecution complex might convince you of that. You're free to buy whatever new car you want for the next decade, and beyond that you're free to own whatever used car you want. Literally nothing like vaccination.
Edited by Dave200 on Thursday 23 May 07:21
Probably better to not use the term 'enthusiast' as it doesn't really convey the correct message. Someone who is enthusiastic about something doesn't mean they're anti something else. That's random leading into extremism and the deranged.
Enthusiasts are members of the normal middle ground. Those who pay prefer say ICE over EV but not to the point of being for one and against the other like it is some kind of football game for the simple minded.
But we have to face the fact that the EV product has become highly politicised and there is that 48/52 attachment being made to the product by many people.
Simultaneously, because of the top down approach to market penetration you also have the chattel monkeys in there who genuinely believe that owning a particular product defines them as a superior species and they have a need to jump in and pollute every discussion with their lunacy.
So you end up with right wing f
kwittery at one end who see the EV as the jackboot crushing their freedom and oppressing the stout English yeoman and devoutly believing that anyone who doesn't agree must categorically be left wing and working for the oppressor when there is no 'other side' to their frothing stupidity. Meanwhile, at the other end are a bunch of chattel monkeys who have no substance to their character or their existence and the need to be supported by the latest consumer object or trend is the only thing holding up the illusion that they just aren't important, interesting or special. They aren't political when it comes to EVs and certainly rarely liberals unless that's the one trend thing to say at the time. They're just narcissists, shoppers, insecure ponces with a need to tell and show everyone that they aren't normal, that they're special.
Ergo, the EV threads end up attracting the two groups. Those going on about oppression, cancel culture and all the standard right wing tropes and then a completely unrelated team turns up to list all the things they own and how much of a special person of higher intellect this makes them.
EV threads have a tendency to be akin to a rugby match at Twickers as if a group of skinheads appeared and walked through the car park. Not interested in the game but in shooting pre-programmed fascist rhetoric. Meanwhile, another group of fking idiots are walking through the other end of the car park upsetting everyone's day shouting 'look at me, please for the love of god, look at me and look at how these shiny possessions make me special.', while doffing their cap to anyone who looks like they may own land going back a few generations.
The key is that everyone else is there for the rugby not to be the discount mental health care for either group of fking idiots.
If someone is a car enthusiast then neither politics nor prices matter. A car enthusiast is the person who can calmly and rationally say that they don't really like SUVs but still think something like the Tomahawk could be proper silly fun. Or that a Lotus isn't their bag without screaming the classic fktard alert word of 'porsche'. Or who can say they don't really see the point of EVs or that some EVs are rubbish while also thinking that things like the i3 are a hoot to drive.
It's the open minded majority being bookended by two groups of sad nutbags who objectify brands, powertrains, shapes and use them as cruxes and tools with which to try and announce their stupidity to normal society.
Enthusiasts are members of the normal middle ground. Those who pay prefer say ICE over EV but not to the point of being for one and against the other like it is some kind of football game for the simple minded.
But we have to face the fact that the EV product has become highly politicised and there is that 48/52 attachment being made to the product by many people.
Simultaneously, because of the top down approach to market penetration you also have the chattel monkeys in there who genuinely believe that owning a particular product defines them as a superior species and they have a need to jump in and pollute every discussion with their lunacy.
So you end up with right wing f
kwittery at one end who see the EV as the jackboot crushing their freedom and oppressing the stout English yeoman and devoutly believing that anyone who doesn't agree must categorically be left wing and working for the oppressor when there is no 'other side' to their frothing stupidity. Meanwhile, at the other end are a bunch of chattel monkeys who have no substance to their character or their existence and the need to be supported by the latest consumer object or trend is the only thing holding up the illusion that they just aren't important, interesting or special. They aren't political when it comes to EVs and certainly rarely liberals unless that's the one trend thing to say at the time. They're just narcissists, shoppers, insecure ponces with a need to tell and show everyone that they aren't normal, that they're special. Ergo, the EV threads end up attracting the two groups. Those going on about oppression, cancel culture and all the standard right wing tropes and then a completely unrelated team turns up to list all the things they own and how much of a special person of higher intellect this makes them.
EV threads have a tendency to be akin to a rugby match at Twickers as if a group of skinheads appeared and walked through the car park. Not interested in the game but in shooting pre-programmed fascist rhetoric. Meanwhile, another group of f
king idiots are walking through the other end of the car park upsetting everyone's day shouting 'look at me, please for the love of god, look at me and look at how these shiny possessions make me special.', while doffing their cap to anyone who looks like they may own land going back a few generations. The key is that everyone else is there for the rugby not to be the discount mental health care for either group of f
king idiots. If someone is a car enthusiast then neither politics nor prices matter. A car enthusiast is the person who can calmly and rationally say that they don't really like SUVs but still think something like the Tomahawk could be proper silly fun. Or that a Lotus isn't their bag without screaming the classic f
ktard alert word of 'porsche'. Or who can say they don't really see the point of EVs or that some EVs are rubbish while also thinking that things like the i3 are a hoot to drive. It's the open minded majority being bookended by two groups of sad nutbags who objectify brands, powertrains, shapes and use them as cruxes and tools with which to try and announce their stupidity to normal society.
survivalist said:
Saweep said:
I saw an advert for a brand new Audi E tron GT, list 114k, with a £40k discount if using Audi FS.
That's quite the discount on the best looking EV out there.
The problem is that it still doesn’t look very good compared to a whole load of ICE cars at a similar price point, which depreciate at a much lower rate. That's quite the discount on the best looking EV out there.
Running costs are pretty much irrelevant at this price point as depreciation will trump the cost of fuel and servicing.
If anything, the discount shows you how undesirable they are.
Certainly trumps the £1200 a Model 3 P would cost on lease or PCP for the same terms without choosing the colour.
SWoll said:
survivalist said:
Saweep said:
I saw an advert for a brand new Audi E tron GT, list 114k, with a £40k discount if using Audi FS.
That's quite the discount on the best looking EV out there.
The problem is that it still doesn’t look very good compared to a whole load of ICE cars at a similar price point, which depreciate at a much lower rate. That's quite the discount on the best looking EV out there.
Running costs are pretty much irrelevant at this price point as depreciation will trump the cost of fuel and servicing.
If anything, the discount shows you how undesirable they are.
Certainly trumps the £1200 a Model 3 P would cost on lease or PCP for the same terms without choosing the colour.
Should pick up a 3 yr old one with 50k miles. 5 yrs and 70k of battery and motor(s) warranty left.
Run it for 3 yrs and 50k miles. Sell it with 20k and 2 yrs left on the warranty. Should still have a good residual value.
Probably the cheapest option, no?
LowTread said:
£20k for a Model 3 long range, plus £1500 for the performance boost puts it close to the performance model.
Should pick up a 3 yr old one with 50k miles. 5 yrs and 70k of battery and motor(s) warranty left.
Run it for 3 yrs and 50k miles. Sell it with 20k and 2 yrs left on the warranty. Should still have a good residual value.
Probably the cheapest option, no?
I don't understand the point of your post. I was comparing the cost of 2 new cars, not suggesting the cheapest possible option.Should pick up a 3 yr old one with 50k miles. 5 yrs and 70k of battery and motor(s) warranty left.
Run it for 3 yrs and 50k miles. Sell it with 20k and 2 yrs left on the warranty. Should still have a good residual value.
Probably the cheapest option, no?
LowTread said:
£20k for a Model 3 long range, plus £1500 for the performance boost puts it close to the performance model.
Should pick up a 3 yr old one with 50k miles. 5 yrs and 70k of battery and motor(s) warranty left.
Run it for 3 yrs and 50k miles. Sell it with 20k and 2 yrs left on the warranty. Should still have a good residual value.
Probably the cheapest option, no?
Cheapest option is not run it to zero and to not care one iota about depreciation. Let's be honest, if depreciation is a concern then it's not a product issue or market issue but a budget issue. Should pick up a 3 yr old one with 50k miles. 5 yrs and 70k of battery and motor(s) warranty left.
Run it for 3 yrs and 50k miles. Sell it with 20k and 2 yrs left on the warranty. Should still have a good residual value.
Probably the cheapest option, no?
A 3 year old Tesla is easily going to last ten years so just run it to zero on that basis and each year beyond ten is an even larger win.
tamore said:
BricktopST205 said:
Maybe because the range is an issue on the petrol variants? Diesel on a big heavy 2+ tonne SUV makes perfect sense. A petrol will be lucky to do 300 miles on a tank whereas a derv will do 450 miles.
but who cares when you can refuel anywhere in under 5 mins?t and do what they want that best fits their needs and or wants.I subscribe to this view and basically do the same. Not get stressed, will do what I want when I want having kept an eye open, trying to keep up to date, look at it objectively, not go shopping for the sake of going shopping, not worrying about appearances, pants kept unbunched.
What I fail to understand is the need for people to justify their choice of car whether it be ICE or EV.
Why worry if folk don't like it it? Does it really matter?
I buy my cars for me me and if my choice is generally thought of as a bad choice then so what? I wouldn't dream of arguing about my choice and neither would I be expecting everyone to think it was wonderful even if they were coming out with crap about it.
Much easier just to buy whatever we want to buy, enjoy driving it and not giving two hoots about whatever anyone thinks about it.
Why worry if folk don't like it it? Does it really matter?
I buy my cars for me me and if my choice is generally thought of as a bad choice then so what? I wouldn't dream of arguing about my choice and neither would I be expecting everyone to think it was wonderful even if they were coming out with crap about it.
Much easier just to buy whatever we want to buy, enjoy driving it and not giving two hoots about whatever anyone thinks about it.
DonkeyApple said:
It's the open minded majority being bookended by two groups of sad nutbags who objectify brands, powertrains, shapes and use them as cruxes and tools with which to try and announce their stupidity to normal society.
Precisely, it's as posted on this and many other topics. Made up numbers for illustration but apply the old 80:20 split.20% split into two groups of very voluble 10% sets at extreme and opposite ends of the spectrum, who irrevocably think everything the other lot say is just wrong because they're the other lot.
Meanwhile the 80% majority who sit at various points in the spectrum are just trying to figure things out and sort wheat from chaff and trying to avoid getting sucked into an argument with a bookend feckwit.
moktabe said:
What I fail to understand is the need for people to justify their choice of car whether it be ICE or EV.
Why worry if folk don't like it it? Does it really matter?
I buy my cars for me me and if my choice is generally thought of as a bad choice then so what? I wouldn't dream of arguing about my choice and neither would I be expecting everyone to think it was wonderful even if they were coming out with crap about it.
Much easier just to buy whatever we want to buy, enjoy driving it and not giving two hoots about whatever anyone thinks about it.
I was drawn to this thread as the stereotypical Geoff’s and their 20 year old Avensis’ were virtue signalling that all EV drivers are either vegan greenpeace warriors or financially illiterate and lived on the breadline for leasing a car.Why worry if folk don't like it it? Does it really matter?
I buy my cars for me me and if my choice is generally thought of as a bad choice then so what? I wouldn't dream of arguing about my choice and neither would I be expecting everyone to think it was wonderful even if they were coming out with crap about it.
Much easier just to buy whatever we want to buy, enjoy driving it and not giving two hoots about whatever anyone thinks about it.
I’m an EV driver, not enthusiast. I chose my i4 M50 due to the performance and associated low running costs compared to the ICE equivalent. Why wouldn’t I want the 544 bhp version of the 4 series rather than the a 420d?
In an ideal world I would have an M3, but the £80k price tag and high running costs rule me out.
If an M3 was available on salary sacrifice with £6 for a tank of fuel I would be all over it.
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