S 172 conviction - truly shafted !
Discussion
gh0st said:
Would you say its proportional to your earnings in any way?
Who knows ?
I told them that I had around £80-£90 per week after living expenses. There were no checks on what I said and I wasn't given an earnings form.
I should have said I have only £10 per week spare but I'm too honest !
I identified myself as the driver but didn't sign the NIP/S172 notice.
Here's the details if anyone's interested:
Oct - Received NIP, alleged 62mph in 50mph (dual carriageway).
Nov Sent back NIP naming myself but unsigned.
Nov - Received letter saying "please sign NIP"
Nov - I sent back letter asking "weher in law does it say I have to sign ?".
Dec - Received letter saying "signature required" as decided by Broomfield case and Offer of Fixed Penalty.
March - Received letter asking for NIP to be signed (also mentions FP offer).
April - Received summons for Speeding and S172.
July - Speeding dropped at pre-trial hearing.
Aug - see below:
The Prosecution started with reading the original section 9 statement for both the speeding (already formally dropped) and the S 172 offences. I was annoyed that the Mags had the speeding statement and pictures in front of them, when this should have been irrelevant to the S 172 charge.
After bringing up the Broomfield and Francis cases (after an extended lunch for the Prosecutor and Mags to read these !) I argued that, although case law says that the NIP/S172 form must be signed if required by the Police, the fact that an offer of a Fixed Penalty had been made meant that the Police were, in fact, satisfied with the information provided. The Chief Mag then said "Oh, it seems that the wrong charge has been brought" (meaning it should have been the speeding charge). I replied "Yes, that was what I expected to happen". Cue lots of discussion about case law with me arguing the point about the law requiring only sufficient information as required by the Police.
Mags then went out to deliberate (nice cup of tea and a biscuit ?).
The Clerk (sound bloke) advised me that he had to advise the Mags that the law says that a signature is required if requested by the Police and therefore I didn't have much hope of victory. He asked (strongly hinted) if I would like to plead guilty to gain "credit" on the sentence but I thought "I might as well go all the way, otherwise I could have got away with the original Fixed Penalty"). I can be a stubborn sod when I have something to prove.
Had a bit of a chat and banter whilst the Mags were enjoying their refreshments, sorry, deliberating this serious offence, talked about holidays and houses and other stuff.
Then the Mags came back, said "guilty", Prosecution asked for costs of £170 which I asked to be reduced. Mags then asked about my earnings, spare money after living expenses (off guard, I said £80-£90 a week !). Then came to bombshell - 3 points, £750 fine and £175 costs (even added an extra £5 costs FFS !).
The Prosecution and Clerk went a bit quiet at that point and seemed genuinely surprised.
I thanked the Bench and they retired (about time, too !).
When they were gone I thanked the Clerk for his help and said "Well done" to the Prosecutor who was a bit embarassed and simply said "Yes, umm, well".
I then said that I wasn't expecting that amount and they both said that neither were they. As I left the Court I said bye and the Prosecutor automatically said "Bye, enjoy you holid...", then stopped, realising what a tasteless thing that was to say.
Now I'm wondering if I should appeal but that will require legal representation and probably several thousand quid down the drain.
Here's the details if anyone's interested:
Oct - Received NIP, alleged 62mph in 50mph (dual carriageway).
Nov Sent back NIP naming myself but unsigned.
Nov - Received letter saying "please sign NIP"
Nov - I sent back letter asking "weher in law does it say I have to sign ?".
Dec - Received letter saying "signature required" as decided by Broomfield case and Offer of Fixed Penalty.
March - Received letter asking for NIP to be signed (also mentions FP offer).
April - Received summons for Speeding and S172.
July - Speeding dropped at pre-trial hearing.
Aug - see below:
The Prosecution started with reading the original section 9 statement for both the speeding (already formally dropped) and the S 172 offences. I was annoyed that the Mags had the speeding statement and pictures in front of them, when this should have been irrelevant to the S 172 charge.
After bringing up the Broomfield and Francis cases (after an extended lunch for the Prosecutor and Mags to read these !) I argued that, although case law says that the NIP/S172 form must be signed if required by the Police, the fact that an offer of a Fixed Penalty had been made meant that the Police were, in fact, satisfied with the information provided. The Chief Mag then said "Oh, it seems that the wrong charge has been brought" (meaning it should have been the speeding charge). I replied "Yes, that was what I expected to happen". Cue lots of discussion about case law with me arguing the point about the law requiring only sufficient information as required by the Police.
Mags then went out to deliberate (nice cup of tea and a biscuit ?).
The Clerk (sound bloke) advised me that he had to advise the Mags that the law says that a signature is required if requested by the Police and therefore I didn't have much hope of victory. He asked (strongly hinted) if I would like to plead guilty to gain "credit" on the sentence but I thought "I might as well go all the way, otherwise I could have got away with the original Fixed Penalty"). I can be a stubborn sod when I have something to prove.
Had a bit of a chat and banter whilst the Mags were enjoying their refreshments, sorry, deliberating this serious offence, talked about holidays and houses and other stuff.
Then the Mags came back, said "guilty", Prosecution asked for costs of £170 which I asked to be reduced. Mags then asked about my earnings, spare money after living expenses (off guard, I said £80-£90 a week !). Then came to bombshell - 3 points, £750 fine and £175 costs (even added an extra £5 costs FFS !).
The Prosecution and Clerk went a bit quiet at that point and seemed genuinely surprised.
I thanked the Bench and they retired (about time, too !).
When they were gone I thanked the Clerk for his help and said "Well done" to the Prosecutor who was a bit embarassed and simply said "Yes, umm, well".
I then said that I wasn't expecting that amount and they both said that neither were they. As I left the Court I said bye and the Prosecutor automatically said "Bye, enjoy you holid...", then stopped, realising what a tasteless thing that was to say.
Now I'm wondering if I should appeal but that will require legal representation and probably several thousand quid down the drain.
'kin 'ell...
I got a NIP at the end of Sept and in light of the Dwight Yorke case and a couple of others, was minded not to sign it etc.
One of our partners specialises in road traffic work and is rated as one of the top practitioners in this field in England/Wales. I had a chat with him as he had a test case due to go to the Court of Appeal after Xmas on the NIP sign/don't sign point.
By that time, the offer of accepting 3 points and a £60 fixed penalty would have long since expired so I had the choice of taking a chance or saying f
k it and paying up.
I decided not to take the risk because I couldn't afford to get hammered on costs if it went to the wire and paid the money. The case went to the Court of Appeal and was unsuccessful.
I got a NIP at the end of Sept and in light of the Dwight Yorke case and a couple of others, was minded not to sign it etc.
One of our partners specialises in road traffic work and is rated as one of the top practitioners in this field in England/Wales. I had a chat with him as he had a test case due to go to the Court of Appeal after Xmas on the NIP sign/don't sign point.
By that time, the offer of accepting 3 points and a £60 fixed penalty would have long since expired so I had the choice of taking a chance or saying f
k it and paying up. I decided not to take the risk because I couldn't afford to get hammered on costs if it went to the wire and paid the money. The case went to the Court of Appeal and was unsuccessful.
HarryW said:
FFS glad the British Justice system has got its priorities right again .
In the current scheme of things, you would have got less if you were kicking the shite of someone on a Saturday night whilst high on crack and shagging the local vicars daughterFFS.
Harry
He said it before so let him say it again:
"The criminal justice system has got it all out of kilter. We treat the motorist like a pariah and the burglar like a victim" Glen Smythe, Metropolitan Police Federation
Top bloke
Edited to say - sympathies to lunarscope
>> Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 26th August 17:43
Although filling out the drivers details he didn't sign the NIP. Without the signature the document is not admissable in court. This was the basis of the recent Idris Francis Case in the European courts.
By not signing, the scamera partnership argued that the registerred keeper had failed to meet his legal obligation, so goes for the failure to complete route rather than the speeding conviction route. Interestingly no where in statute law does it say you must sign the form.
DAZ
Ps - For details of the Idris Francis case take a look at
www.abd.org.uk
and do a search on "right to silence"
>> Edited by dazren on Thursday 26th August 19:14
By not signing, the scamera partnership argued that the registerred keeper had failed to meet his legal obligation, so goes for the failure to complete route rather than the speeding conviction route. Interestingly no where in statute law does it say you must sign the form.
DAZ
Ps - For details of the Idris Francis case take a look at
www.abd.org.uk
and do a search on "right to silence"
>> Edited by dazren on Thursday 26th August 19:14
Bit of background reading for you. 
www.righttosilence.org.uk/
I genuinely fail to see the justice in a fine of £750.
DAZ
www.righttosilence.org.uk/
I genuinely fail to see the justice in a fine of £750.
DAZ
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