Scammed in N. Wales!
Discussion
Hi,
Posting on behalf of my brother.
Caught by a van on his motorbike, 35 in a 30 just before an NSL, well out of village. Perfect conditions.
Thing is, he saw the van and was sure he was within the limit.
What can he do? He wants to request the photos to confirm there was no targetting error - to be caught at 35 he would have to have had an indicated 38 or so on the speedo which he is sure he didn't.
Thing is, does he have to go to court if he requests photo? Obviously can't use the "who was driving?" reason to get the photos as he was on the bike! What excuse can he use?
Also, does he still have to get the NIP back by the 28 day deadline if it takes a while for the photos to come through?
And don't say "go to pepipoo" because I haven't had much joy there :(
Help!
Posting on behalf of my brother.
Caught by a van on his motorbike, 35 in a 30 just before an NSL, well out of village. Perfect conditions.
Thing is, he saw the van and was sure he was within the limit.
What can he do? He wants to request the photos to confirm there was no targetting error - to be caught at 35 he would have to have had an indicated 38 or so on the speedo which he is sure he didn't.
Thing is, does he have to go to court if he requests photo? Obviously can't use the "who was driving?" reason to get the photos as he was on the bike! What excuse can he use?
Also, does he still have to get the NIP back by the 28 day deadline if it takes a while for the photos to come through?
And don't say "go to pepipoo" because I haven't had much joy there :(
Help!
AFAIK, they are under no obligation to provide evidence of an offence UNLESS you refuse to accept the conditional offer by signing the S172.
The S172 states unequivocally that you are guilty of the offence. Do not sign the S172. Hie thee back to pepipoo and download the letter to accompany the BLANK NIP back to the bastards. At the very least, you will have made the bloodsucking wank3rs work for the money.
Your brother will find it difficult to get the evidence from them. He might want to try the "not sure who was riding" stuff?
The S172 states unequivocally that you are guilty of the offence. Do not sign the S172. Hie thee back to pepipoo and download the letter to accompany the BLANK NIP back to the bastards. At the very least, you will have made the bloodsucking wank3rs work for the money.
Your brother will find it difficult to get the evidence from them. He might want to try the "not sure who was riding" stuff?
NCOT, I've tried to give you a summary of the options on the thread you started over on pepipoo.
Short story, pay up or fight. Fight options are either fill in NIP, wait for summons and then attempt to get disclosure of the video and/or hope they screw up OR send back PACE statement which gives them the information they need to comply with S172 but, theoretically, does not allow them to turn the information into a confession.
You are, of course, correct when you point out that they refuse to allow you to see the evidence until you decide to go to court. Expect to see threatening letters about more points, huge fines etc if you do decide to fight.
>> Edited by MrsMiggins on Wednesday 25th May 23:55
Short story, pay up or fight. Fight options are either fill in NIP, wait for summons and then attempt to get disclosure of the video and/or hope they screw up OR send back PACE statement which gives them the information they need to comply with S172 but, theoretically, does not allow them to turn the information into a confession.
You are, of course, correct when you point out that they refuse to allow you to see the evidence until you decide to go to court. Expect to see threatening letters about more points, huge fines etc if you do decide to fight.
>> Edited by MrsMiggins on Wednesday 25th May 23:55
okey dokey...
S172 as far as I can see merely throws them into a loop in the system(has he returned the NIP
is it signed:no:but,but,but..etc)
You are entitled under ECHR legislation to view the evidence of a criminal charge against you. Under criminal proceedings. Which you are not at, yet.
The NIP is a civilian body, and check that the NIP says something about the Chief Constable, and they are offering your brother the chance to fess up right now, and admit that he is a child killer and would be better off without that nasty smelly motorbike, but on a bus.
I'm sure better minds than mine will be along soon to explain better, but this is starting to pi55 me off.
(not you, the system)
S172 as far as I can see merely throws them into a loop in the system(has he returned the NIP
is it signed:no:but,but,but..etc) You are entitled under ECHR legislation to view the evidence of a criminal charge against you. Under criminal proceedings. Which you are not at, yet.
The NIP is a civilian body, and check that the NIP says something about the Chief Constable, and they are offering your brother the chance to fess up right now, and admit that he is a child killer and would be better off without that nasty smelly motorbike, but on a bus.
I'm sure better minds than mine will be along soon to explain better, but this is starting to pi55 me off.
(not you, the system)
With thanks to FastShow, this is how the procedure used in speeding cases would work with murders. I think this shows, quite easily, the rights and wrongs of the speed camera prosecution process in this country.
- Police find dead body and think Mr Jones did it
- Police send Mr Jones a letter telling him to confess to the murder or tell them who did it
- The penalty for confessing is 1 year in jail, the penalty for not confessing and arguing in court is 25 years
- Mr Jones can only see the evidence against him if he goes for the 25 year option
- If Mr Jones genuinely didn't commit the crime, and doesn't know who did, he is hauled up in court and forced to prove that he doesn't know who did
- The penalty for him not knowing who did it and failing to prove as much is also 25 years
- Police find dead body and think Mr Jones did it
- Police send Mr Jones a letter telling him to confess to the murder or tell them who did it
- The penalty for confessing is 1 year in jail, the penalty for not confessing and arguing in court is 25 years
- Mr Jones can only see the evidence against him if he goes for the 25 year option
- If Mr Jones genuinely didn't commit the crime, and doesn't know who did, he is hauled up in court and forced to prove that he doesn't know who did
- The penalty for him not knowing who did it and failing to prove as much is also 25 years
Thanks guys, keep it coming.
It seems a deliberate ploy - make it all as difficult and complicated as possible, and people will just say "oh well, it's only 60 quid".
What's so annoying is that he is an extremely good & observant biker - he saw the van and is sure he was within the limit. Certainly not the 38 or so indicated it would be to trigger a 35mph actual reading. I feel sure he is victim of this parallax targetting error thingy...
He had his GPS satnav thing going at the time, will be interesting to see his logged speed at the time (although no good as proof, natch)
It seems a deliberate ploy - make it all as difficult and complicated as possible, and people will just say "oh well, it's only 60 quid".
What's so annoying is that he is an extremely good & observant biker - he saw the van and is sure he was within the limit. Certainly not the 38 or so indicated it would be to trigger a 35mph actual reading. I feel sure he is victim of this parallax targetting error thingy...
He had his GPS satnav thing going at the time, will be interesting to see his logged speed at the time (although no good as proof, natch
)
To re-enforce what has already been said:
It's been many years since my last speeding fine by radar gun, but! To this day, when a police officer pings you with a radar gun and stops you he will always show you the reading he obtained there and then!....................Why?
What's so different? Why are these SCP scum allowed to get away with withholding a reasonable request to see their evidence when a police officer gives it freely?
Will all those that are opposed to the EU please note, on this they're fighting your corner. On this the ECHR is likely to find in your favour........eventually.
>> Edited by 8Pack on Thursday 26th May 00:36
It's been many years since my last speeding fine by radar gun, but! To this day, when a police officer pings you with a radar gun and stops you he will always show you the reading he obtained there and then!....................Why?
What's so different? Why are these SCP scum allowed to get away with withholding a reasonable request to see their evidence when a police officer gives it freely?
Will all those that are opposed to the EU please note, on this they're fighting your corner. On this the ECHR is likely to find in your favour........eventually.
>> Edited by 8Pack on Thursday 26th May 00:36
NiceCupOfTea said:
Just to confirm : there is no risk to asking for the photos is there? Bro is worried it could escalate into a bigger charge. I reckon it's just a case of ID'ing the rider as others use the bike from time to time.
What say you?
There is a standard letter over you-know-where for this. Basically he needs to tell them that he is unsure who the rider was on the day in question so would like to see the picture to help determine who it was and comply with their request. They may invite him to the station rather than send pics out so there is a risk that he could be identified in person while there. Given that the offence was on a bike the chance of this is reduced though.
8Pack said:
Will all those that are opposed to the EU please note, on this they're fighting your corner. On this the ECHR is likely to find in your favour........eventually.
The ECHR and the EU are very different and seperate bodies. Do not confuse them, and do not vote for the EU.
We are a signatory to the ECHR but a member (spit) of the EU.
I was told by a solicitor that you are entitled to see the photos because you have a right to know the evidence against you. I would write and ask for the photos, if they don't send them immediately then there is obviously a problem (like not guilty), they also give you an extra 14 days from sending you the photos to sign the NIP.
Also, the same solicitor told me that the photos can't be used for ID purposes as this is not the purpose for which they were intended.
Also, the same solicitor told me that the photos can't be used for ID purposes as this is not the purpose for which they were intended.
NiceCupOfTea said:
Just to confirm : there is no risk to asking for the photos is there? Bro is worried it could escalate into a bigger charge. I reckon it's just a case of ID'ing the rider as others use the bike from time to time.
What say you?
IIRC he can change his plea (to guilty) right up to the day in court. The least this will achieve is postponing the time it takes for the points to hit his licence.
A couple of points, go the PACE route for identifying the drive, plead not guilty to any speeding charge that wings its way to him, request the disclosure of two things:
1) The complete video evidence, and
2) The police identification number of the policeman who made the assessment of excess speed prior to the speed measuring equipment being used.
Also ask him the location of the van, was it in the NSL? If so, how far? Maybe the speed measurement was done when he was already in the NSL.
1) The complete video evidence, and
2) The police identification number of the policeman who made the assessment of excess speed prior to the speed measuring equipment being used.
Also ask him the location of the van, was it in the NSL? If so, how far? Maybe the speed measurement was done when he was already in the NSL.
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