Someone got caught speeding, might have been me.
Discussion
martinbiz said:
xxxyyyzzz said:
The police can of course send an S172 request directly to the officers of the company...6 points all round I fear.
No they can't, read my post, as a corporate entity only the company as a body can be prosecuted, the directors are employees just like anyone else who works there.Why can the police not send a S172 request to the directors of the company and the manager who has replied on behalf of the company? I'll give you a clue; there are no reasons why an S172 could not be sent as I suggest. In fact the police can send a notice in this matter to you and I if they so wished. They won't send one to you and I but to the directors and manager, they can and just might.
Isn't number 3 on the NIP very poorly worded? The law is interested in who was driving, not where the driver's vehicle was.
NIP said:
I dispute that my vehicle was at the scene of the alleged offence.
I assume that the OP doesn't own a box van. He probably owns a car which wasn't there. Should tick no. 3 on behalf of the pedants.
xxxyyyzzz said:
Oh dear! Quite wrong.
Why can the police not send a S172 request to the directors of the company and the manager who has replied on behalf of the company? I'll give you a clue; there are no reasons why an S172 could not be sent as I suggest. In fact the police can send a notice in this matter to you and I if they so wished. They won't send one to you and I but to the directors and manager, they can and just might.
Oh dear indeed. There is always one confrontational keyboard warrior offering misguided and incorrect advice that they then take exception to being corrected. Please point us to the legilslation that backs your above assertion and when you cant find it I will point you in the right direction to see what the law actually saysWhy can the police not send a S172 request to the directors of the company and the manager who has replied on behalf of the company? I'll give you a clue; there are no reasons why an S172 could not be sent as I suggest. In fact the police can send a notice in this matter to you and I if they so wished. They won't send one to you and I but to the directors and manager, they can and just might.
Shame AGT seems to be offline recently, but hey ho you would probably argue with him as well.
martinbiz said:
xxxyyyzzz said:
Oh dear! Quite wrong.
Why can the police not send a S172 request to the directors of the company and the manager who has replied on behalf of the company? I'll give you a clue; there are no reasons why an S172 could not be sent as I suggest. In fact the police can send a notice in this matter to you and I if they so wished. They won't send one to you and I but to the directors and manager, they can and just might.
Oh dear indeed. There is always one confrontational keyboard warrior offering misguided and incorrect advice that they then take exception to being corrected. Please point us to the legilslation that backs your above assertion and when you cant find it I will point you in the right direction to see what the law actually saysWhy can the police not send a S172 request to the directors of the company and the manager who has replied on behalf of the company? I'll give you a clue; there are no reasons why an S172 could not be sent as I suggest. In fact the police can send a notice in this matter to you and I if they so wished. They won't send one to you and I but to the directors and manager, they can and just might.
Shame AGT seems to be offline recently, but hey ho you would probably argue with him as well.
xxxyyyzzz said:
It’s caselaw, Elliott v Loake
This gets worse, Elliot v Loake is complety irrelevant. A.The prosecution and subsequent appeal was as a result of an RTA which throws up a completely different set of rules. B. The appelant through forensic evidence was shown to have lied and most important. C. The entire case centered around whether the presumption that a keeper must also be the driver if there is no evidence to the contrary has any legal legs.sorry but i've missed the connection.
Edited by martinbiz on Wednesday 4th October 20:56
Surely you are a freeman of the land!
Seriously though it pays to be super careful if you are an HGV driver.
A good mate of mine messes around with cars in his spare time and is a Driver so he only ever tows a car trailer about on days off with 8 hours clear each side and logs his private trailer mileage in a note book purely to cover him should anyone ever suggest that the workshop and cars is a business on the side and not his own hobby.
Seriously though it pays to be super careful if you are an HGV driver.
A good mate of mine messes around with cars in his spare time and is a Driver so he only ever tows a car trailer about on days off with 8 hours clear each side and logs his private trailer mileage in a note book purely to cover him should anyone ever suggest that the workshop and cars is a business on the side and not his own hobby.
Stick Legs said:
Surely you are a freeman of the land!
Seriously though it pays to be super careful if you are an HGV driver.
A good mate of mine messes around with cars in his spare time and is a Driver so he only ever tows a car trailer about on days off with 8 hours clear each side and logs his private trailer mileage in a note book purely to cover him should anyone ever suggest that the workshop and cars is a business on the side and not his own hobby.
Not a bad way for your mate to think, athough in law he can jump straight into a private car/van as soon as he's finished driving even if upto his maximum hours, but getting stopped and having to go through the grief of explaining he's not working to plod, some of whom seem to have a very vague knowledge of motoring law is probably more trouble than it's worth.Seriously though it pays to be super careful if you are an HGV driver.
A good mate of mine messes around with cars in his spare time and is a Driver so he only ever tows a car trailer about on days off with 8 hours clear each side and logs his private trailer mileage in a note book purely to cover him should anyone ever suggest that the workshop and cars is a business on the side and not his own hobby.
Right then, just got of the phone to a nice lady at the Bristol Speed Enforcement Unit. I explained the situation and that I'd sent a letter, what it stated but I'd not heard anything.
I was rather surprised by her reply, she said, after confirming my identity, that she had just got the letter. She read it as I waited in the phone and very quickly said that she'd go straight back to my company and if indeed there was no evidence the ticket would go in their name.
Very straightforward and unless some evidence 'appears' it doesn't look like my company has a leg to stand on. Lucky I've kept all email correspondence with my manager where he clearly stated that there was no evidence and they are not 100% sure who it was.
I was rather surprised by her reply, she said, after confirming my identity, that she had just got the letter. She read it as I waited in the phone and very quickly said that she'd go straight back to my company and if indeed there was no evidence the ticket would go in their name.
Very straightforward and unless some evidence 'appears' it doesn't look like my company has a leg to stand on. Lucky I've kept all email correspondence with my manager where he clearly stated that there was no evidence and they are not 100% sure who it was.
NickM450 said:
Right then, just got of the phone to a nice lady at the Bristol Speed Enforcement Unit. I explained the situation and that I'd sent a letter, what it stated but I'd not heard anything.
I was rather surprised by her reply, she said, after confirming my identity, that she had just got the letter. She read it as I waited in the phone and very quickly said that she'd go straight back to my company and if indeed there was no evidence the ticket would go in their name.
Very straightforward and unless some evidence 'appears' it doesn't look like my company has a leg to stand on. Lucky I've kept all email correspondence with my manager where he clearly stated that there was no evidence and they are not 100% sure who it was.
Sounds like a good result could be on the cards here. Fair play to you for sticking to your guns mateI was rather surprised by her reply, she said, after confirming my identity, that she had just got the letter. She read it as I waited in the phone and very quickly said that she'd go straight back to my company and if indeed there was no evidence the ticket would go in their name.
Very straightforward and unless some evidence 'appears' it doesn't look like my company has a leg to stand on. Lucky I've kept all email correspondence with my manager where he clearly stated that there was no evidence and they are not 100% sure who it was.
Good man.Right then folks, bit of an update.
I'd heard nothing about this speeding of once since I spoke with the people at the Speeding Enforcement place. That is, until today, du, du, duuuuuuu!
Got pulled in the same manager's office after my shift today, started all nice by saying he hadn't seen me in a long time etc. then I shut the office door and immediately he said "this speeding fine"
Anyway, as it turns out he has managed to glean further evidence that it was me, despite the fact he categorically stated, in an email, that he wasn't 100% sure. I did post the email a few pages back. The letter was returned once again with my name attached and it was up to me if I wanted to risk going to court. I've also made this a much bigger issue than it needed to be as higher managers are now aware and if it is found to be me, by way of me admitting it or in court, he has no choice but to take the appropriate action as someone is my position shouldn't be getting speeding tickets.
To be honest it was rather odd, didn't seem to be too threatening on the surface but reading in between the lines the 'appropriate action' line did get me thinking and overall I did get the impression that I should take.this and shut up about it, I'll still be disciplined though.
I'd heard nothing about this speeding of once since I spoke with the people at the Speeding Enforcement place. That is, until today, du, du, duuuuuuu!
Got pulled in the same manager's office after my shift today, started all nice by saying he hadn't seen me in a long time etc. then I shut the office door and immediately he said "this speeding fine"
Anyway, as it turns out he has managed to glean further evidence that it was me, despite the fact he categorically stated, in an email, that he wasn't 100% sure. I did post the email a few pages back. The letter was returned once again with my name attached and it was up to me if I wanted to risk going to court. I've also made this a much bigger issue than it needed to be as higher managers are now aware and if it is found to be me, by way of me admitting it or in court, he has no choice but to take the appropriate action as someone is my position shouldn't be getting speeding tickets.
To be honest it was rather odd, didn't seem to be too threatening on the surface but reading in between the lines the 'appropriate action' line did get me thinking and overall I did get the impression that I should take.this and shut up about it, I'll still be disciplined though.
NickM450 said:
Anyway, as it turns out he has managed to glean further evidence that it was me
And did he bother sharing this information with you?NickM450 said:
I've also made this a much bigger issue than it needed to be as higher managers are now aware and if it is found to be me, by way of me admitting it or in court, he has no choice but to take the appropriate action as someone is my position shouldn't be getting speeding tickets.
This is starting to sound like somewhere I wouldn't want to be working for much longer.Your call whether you want to do them the favour of sticking your hand up to something you're adamant you didn't do.
Sorry to hear this nick.
Odd that he wasn't prepared to lay on the table the conclusive evidence that showed it 100% was you driving!
I'm not sure I see a "win" for you in this situation no matter which way it goes. Hopefully someone else will be able to help. I wish you all the best.
Odd that he wasn't prepared to lay on the table the conclusive evidence that showed it 100% was you driving!
I'm not sure I see a "win" for you in this situation no matter which way it goes. Hopefully someone else will be able to help. I wish you all the best.
At this point I would be raising a grievance with HR* about your boss:-
- Show them the prior correspondence, ESPECIALLY the "no conclusive evidence" bit.
- Point out the reasons why (a) you don't believe it's you; and (b) why you feel that your manager is just picking someone to avoid a bigger corporate issue because the company doesn't have the right procedures in place.
- Document right now your recollection of this conversation, ESPECIALLY the veiled threat and his refusal to show you the 'new evidence'. Discuss this with HR.
- Say you feel that you have been bullied towards taking the ticket 'for the company' the whole way along, which is (a) morally wrong; and (b) potentially PCOTJ, as you are reasonably certain it wasn't you therefore you would be knowingly taking the rap for someone else.
PS - if their lack of procedures is a legal compliance failure with regard to driver hours or similar, then find a whisteblowing route and whistleblow against your employer. There's apparently some good whistleblower protection around now...although again, find out more through e.g. ACAS.
* Unless of course HR are known to be a mouthpiece for the management. In which case seek union / ACAS / other advice first - you may still need to go down the internal complaints route. And you may yet need to go to court and present your case.
- Show them the prior correspondence, ESPECIALLY the "no conclusive evidence" bit.
- Point out the reasons why (a) you don't believe it's you; and (b) why you feel that your manager is just picking someone to avoid a bigger corporate issue because the company doesn't have the right procedures in place.
- Document right now your recollection of this conversation, ESPECIALLY the veiled threat and his refusal to show you the 'new evidence'. Discuss this with HR.
- Say you feel that you have been bullied towards taking the ticket 'for the company' the whole way along, which is (a) morally wrong; and (b) potentially PCOTJ, as you are reasonably certain it wasn't you therefore you would be knowingly taking the rap for someone else.
PS - if their lack of procedures is a legal compliance failure with regard to driver hours or similar, then find a whisteblowing route and whistleblow against your employer. There's apparently some good whistleblower protection around now...although again, find out more through e.g. ACAS.
* Unless of course HR are known to be a mouthpiece for the management. In which case seek union / ACAS / other advice first - you may still need to go down the internal complaints route. And you may yet need to go to court and present your case.
Edited by havoc on Friday 15th December 18:19
NickM450 said:
Right then folks, bit of an update.
I'd heard nothing about this speeding of once since I spoke with the people at the Speeding Enforcement place. That is, until today, du, du, duuuuuuu!
Got pulled in the same manager's office after my shift today, started all nice by saying he hadn't seen me in a long time etc. then I shut the office door and immediately he said "this speeding fine"
Anyway, as it turns out he has managed to glean further evidence that it was me, despite the fact he categorically stated, in an email, that he wasn't 100% sure. I did post the email a few pages back. The letter was returned once again with my name attached and it was up to me if I wanted to risk going to court. I've also made this a much bigger issue than it needed to be as higher managers are now aware and if it is found to be me, by way of me admitting it or in court, he has no choice but to take the appropriate action as someone is my position shouldn't be getting speeding tickets.
To be honest it was rather odd, didn't seem to be too threatening on the surface but reading in between the lines the 'appropriate action' line did get me thinking and overall I did get the impression that I should take.this and shut up about it, I'll still be disciplined though.
I'm not sure how the police deal with "he said, she said" cases, but this probably isn't going to go away. Both you and your employer have responded to s.172 notices, so next stop is probably going to be court (my guess would be for your employer, as theirs was the more comprehensive obligation). Good luck.I'd heard nothing about this speeding of once since I spoke with the people at the Speeding Enforcement place. That is, until today, du, du, duuuuuuu!
Got pulled in the same manager's office after my shift today, started all nice by saying he hadn't seen me in a long time etc. then I shut the office door and immediately he said "this speeding fine"
Anyway, as it turns out he has managed to glean further evidence that it was me, despite the fact he categorically stated, in an email, that he wasn't 100% sure. I did post the email a few pages back. The letter was returned once again with my name attached and it was up to me if I wanted to risk going to court. I've also made this a much bigger issue than it needed to be as higher managers are now aware and if it is found to be me, by way of me admitting it or in court, he has no choice but to take the appropriate action as someone is my position shouldn't be getting speeding tickets.
To be honest it was rather odd, didn't seem to be too threatening on the surface but reading in between the lines the 'appropriate action' line did get me thinking and overall I did get the impression that I should take.this and shut up about it, I'll still be disciplined though.
NickM450 said:
Right then folks, bit of an update.
I'd heard nothing about this speeding of once since I spoke with the people at the Speeding Enforcement place. That is, until today, du, du, duuuuuuu!
Got pulled in the same manager's office after my shift today, started all nice by saying he hadn't seen me in a long time etc. then I shut the office door and immediately he said "this speeding fine"
Anyway, as it turns out he has managed to glean further evidence that it was me, despite the fact he categorically stated, in an email, that he wasn't 100% sure. I did post the email a few pages back. The letter was returned once again with my name attached and it was up to me if I wanted to risk going to court. I've also made this a much bigger issue than it needed to be as higher managers are now aware and if it is found to be me, by way of me admitting it or in court, he has no choice but to take the appropriate action as someone is my position shouldn't be getting speeding tickets.
To be honest it was rather odd, didn't seem to be too threatening on the surface but reading in between the lines the 'appropriate action' line did get me thinking and overall I did get the impression that I should take.this and shut up about it, I'll still be disciplined though.
Very interesting that the evidence that was hidden comes out as soon as you not accepting the fine and shutting up isn't happening. Any idea what it is? I personally would have asked the customer who got the delivery out that way if they had any recollection of who was driving/cctv, but I imagine it's way too late for this. Anyway, best of luck going forward!I'd heard nothing about this speeding of once since I spoke with the people at the Speeding Enforcement place. That is, until today, du, du, duuuuuuu!
Got pulled in the same manager's office after my shift today, started all nice by saying he hadn't seen me in a long time etc. then I shut the office door and immediately he said "this speeding fine"
Anyway, as it turns out he has managed to glean further evidence that it was me, despite the fact he categorically stated, in an email, that he wasn't 100% sure. I did post the email a few pages back. The letter was returned once again with my name attached and it was up to me if I wanted to risk going to court. I've also made this a much bigger issue than it needed to be as higher managers are now aware and if it is found to be me, by way of me admitting it or in court, he has no choice but to take the appropriate action as someone is my position shouldn't be getting speeding tickets.
To be honest it was rather odd, didn't seem to be too threatening on the surface but reading in between the lines the 'appropriate action' line did get me thinking and overall I did get the impression that I should take.this and shut up about it, I'll still be disciplined though.
codenamecueball said:
Very interesting that the evidence that was hidden comes out as soon as you not accepting the fine and shutting up isn't happening. Any idea what it is? I personally would have asked the customer who got the delivery out that way if they had any recollection of who was driving/cctv, but I imagine it's way too late for this. Anyway, best of luck going forward!
I doubt any evidence was "hidden". That would have been a very poor strategy. The employer's obligation to provide the required information to the police was to do so within 28 days. It would seem that any "further information" they provide now would only prove that they had committed the offence when they initially responded--by failing to provide (all of) the required information within the 28 days. And a company probably cannot avail itself of the statutory defence, given that its failure to keep adequate records is probably not "reasonable".OP, do you have legal expenses insurance?
Whether you take the rap or not I suspect your life is now going to be made difficult.
Take havoc’s advice. Keep notes of everything. I would be submitting a formal grievance against your manager, if you don’t you may well regret not doing so in future.
Whether you take the rap or not I suspect your life is now going to be made difficult.
Take havoc’s advice. Keep notes of everything. I would be submitting a formal grievance against your manager, if you don’t you may well regret not doing so in future.
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