Driver Awareness Course - bizarre advice?

[MB140]

Ari said:

Surprised by the amount of people claiming their autos change down when engaging Sport Mode. Certainly it makes the gearbox more eager to change down with lighter throttle inputs, and yes it will hang on to gears longer as you accelerate.

But travelling on an even throttle at (say) 30mph in 4th (7 speed box) - it drops to 3rd upon activation of the button?

Surprised and not my experience, but I've not driven every auto so maybe some do.

The ZF8 in my m135i simply will not drop below 2000rpm unless you are coming to a stop in sports modes. So compared to comfort or eco (wtf eco on a 3 ltr, whatever) it generally sits about 500-750rpm higher. It also makes the throttle response really aggressive. A tiny movement and you r heads going backwards. In fact in my work boots I stick to comfort mode as it’s too easy to be off like a rocket due to the lack of feeling in the sole.

[poo at Paul's]

dropping down a couple of cogs helps you control speed in slower speed limit areas, I would agree, so his advice sounds about right. The sport mode thing will work on some autos, not all. Again, if is can manually change down it may help, otherwise watch that speedo.

[bigdog3]

poo at Paul's said:

dropping down a couple of cogs helps you control speed in slower speed limit areas,

The throttle is a critical device. In lower gears, small changes in throttle opening result in greater changes of acceleration (and speed). How does dropping down a couple of cogs help control speed ???

[GW65]

BertBert said:

They also left you with the impression that somehow if you'd been doing the speed limit you would have stopped - regardless of the scenario. Nonsense!
Bert

No, they left people with the impression that if you do hit something you'll hit it more slowly (and perhaps not hit it). Hard to argue with that...

[98elise]

kambites said:

Ari said:

So his advice is to only drive in 2nd gear in a 20mph limit and never higher than 3rd gear in a 30mph limit, irrespective of what the car is. He also said on modern cars with economy lights telling you to shift up, you can put the light out by simply lifting completely off the accelerator. Which probably works, albeit with the slight inconvenience that you'll grind to a halt...

Seems daft to me too but I'm pretty sure driving instructors teach people to use 3rd in a 30 limit these days too. My car is happiest and mot efficient in 5th in a 30 limit as long as it's not up-hill.

ETA: For people who are incapable of keeping their speed down to 30 in 30 limits, being in a lower gear probably does help.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 6th August 19:56

My daughter's instructor has told her to use 3rd in a 30. I find that bizzare.

[jonwm]

I was in one a few years ago and remember the sport mode advise on mine.

He also said a general public driver should never go above 80 as the brain struggles to take things in or something like that. Police offers had special training to deal with such high speed driving

[longblackcoat]

MB140 said:

gazza285 said:

Just smile sweetly and keep your mouth shut. Your opinion is neither wanted nor welcome.

Not had to do one myself (weren’t available when I last got points).

My friend and his wife both did the same one at the same time. My wife and I were meeting them in the pub after. My mate was ripping at the amount of bks and condescending talk down to you tone the tt had used. Hell he had a 30 minute rant just to get his pent up anger out at the crap. Said if there’s a next time he is taking the points because it took every ounce of restraint not to go and batter the life out the little .

Then your friend is, to put it politely, a bit of a dick.

No, the courses aren't a lot of fun. Yes, there's some preachiness. But look at what they're dealing with - people who don't have a clue what the speed limits are, what road signs mean, or what to do in the event of an accident. About 30% of the people on my last course seemed to be unaware of the basics of how roads worked, and I was amazed that some of them had actually managed to pass their test. So the instructors cater, using VERY BIG LETTERS and minimal complexity, for the buffoons.

I've now done three speed awareness courses. I drive a fair way in excess of the speed limit at times and see SAC/points as par for the course. If I pick up more than one every five years or so, my awareness is clearly slipping. Each time I attend one I learn something and if your friend just sat and fulminated at the back without trying to learn a bit, then yes, he should just have taken the points. He had the option to do that in the first place.

[Dr Jekyll]

bigdog3 said:

The throttle is a critical device. In lower gears, small changes in throttle opening result in greater changes of acceleration (and speed). How does dropping down a couple of cogs help control speed ???

I think you've answered your own question.

[Pica-Pica]

Ari said:

There was one very interesting fact to come out of the course for me (assuming it's actually true of course. One hopes that, whilst they might not know much about cars, the safety advice is at least well researched).

Paint a line on an empty motorway. Drive at 70mph, hit the brakes as you cross the line as hard as you can till you stop.

Then get an identical car in the next lane doing 100mph, same thing, hit the brakes as hard as poss once it crosses the line.

The second car still be doing just over 70mph as it passes the stationary car that braked from 70mph!

That's pretty sobering!

Kinetic energy is mass times the square of the speed. So, with a similar car, twice the speed has four times the energy, and therefore takes four times longer to stop.
100mph car has twice as much energy as one at70mph
70mph twice as much as at 50mph
50mph twice as much as at 36 mph

[caiss4]

98elise said:

My daughter's instructor has told her to use 3rd in a 30. I find that bizzare.

I advise my students to use 3rd for 30mph zones! I do discuss the reasons why with them.

Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.

If they are driving a car that can tolerate 28mph in 4th then they absolutely should be in 4th but my experience is that small 1-1.5l cars are geared in such a way that the engine is struggling. Taking my own car as an example, at 28mph the engine speed is under 1400rpm in 4th. Being a diesel the vibration becomes very noticeable and the first reaction is to press the accelerator and before you know it the car is doing 33mph (where it feels quite comfortable).

As a side note, when I was undergoing ADI training my instructor was trying to illustrate this point whilst driving my S4. He was totally flummoxed when he discovered that the car was quite happy doing 30 in 6th gear

[bigdog3]

Dr Jekyll said:

bigdog3 said:

The throttle is a critical device. In lower gears, small changes in throttle opening result in greater changes of acceleration (and speed). How does dropping down a couple of cogs help control speed ???

I think you've answered your own question.

So you would rather have a hair trigger which is fundamentally unstable and difficult to control? That's what happens when you select lower gears.

[Dr Jekyll]

bigdog3 said:

Dr Jekyll said:

bigdog3 said:

The throttle is a critical device. In lower gears, small changes in throttle opening result in greater changes of acceleration (and speed). How does dropping down a couple of cogs help control speed ???

I think you've answered your own question.

So you would rather have a hair trigger which is fundamentally unstable and difficult to control? That's what happens when you select lower gears.

If it's too low yes, if it's too high the lack of response is a problem. I was just pointing out how a lower gear can help.

[Graveworm]

bigdog3 said:

So you would rather have a hair trigger which is fundamentally unstable and difficult to control? That's what happens when you select lower gears.

Learn to drive like bigdog

Edited by Graveworm on Thursday 8th August 20:16

[bigdog3]

Graveworm said:

bigdog3 said:

So you would rather have a hair trigger which is fundamentally unstable and difficult to control? That's what happens when you select lower gears.

Learn to drive like bigdog

Step 10

Although sometimes I only get 5 mpg but that's a different story

[Ian Geary]

In my manual car that is a turbo diesel, if I am pootling along at say 35 - 40mph and put it in 5th (highest gear) the engine definitely pulls the speed upwards with no change to the throttle.

It's like engine braking in reverse..the engine is labouring and trying to get back to a speed its happier at.

Lower gears are definitely better for control...yes more "sensitive" but more responsive too.

If i'm in 3rd or 4th at 30, and desire "maximum" acceleration (I'll take the risk of confusing pedestrians and cyclists), the car takes an age to do anything. It can be several seconds before speed pics up noticeably.

If I was in second gear, then it would be ever so slightly less than several seconds before it pics up speed noticeably.

I can live with a hair trigger - it's my foot after all..it only does what I want it to (apart from that unfortunate incident involving a banana, a nun, and a tube of superglue)

[bigdog3]

Ian Geary said:

In my manual car that is a turbo diesel, if I am pootling along at say 35 - 40mph and put it in 5th (highest gear) the engine definitely pulls the speed upwards with no change to the throttle.

It's like engine braking in reverse..the engine is labouring and trying to get back to a speed its happier at.

What engine speed is 35mph in 5th gear? Sounds like you are outside the working range and fallen off the torque curve. Don't do that

Be careful with that superglue and hope the nun recovered

[andygo]

carinaman said:

More weight could be saved by removing the fuel tank altogether.

Or being a lighter human being..

[Red Devil]

280E said:

loskie said:

Also berated me for answering that a measure of pressure was PSI.

And of course if by 'PSI' you meant 'pounds per square inch', then you were indeed wrong

No, he wasn't. Pounds per square inch is merely one unit of measurement.
Others are available - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQn1Lat73AE

I've never been on a SAC. I expect it's pot luck what calibre of presenter you will get.
Thee is good and bad in every organisation.

[xjay1337]

poppopbangbang said:

I had an experience several years ago where a similar sort of chap told the room with a straight face that "a professional driver can always stop quicker without ABS but it makes you lot safer because you aren't that skilled". I questioned this based on my experience of calibrating Bosch ABS systems for motosport and road car use along with, at the time, being a paid test driver which eventually resulted in being told to be quite or I would be marked as having not attended.

The only thing more terrifying than the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability members of the public have is the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability those who are supposed to improve the general publics motoring ability have.

This is one thing I don't understand


Surely knowledge transfer can go both ways and it seems pretty childish to say shut up or you'll be marked as not attending?
What a load of st.

[BertBert]

Whilst the course is not the most fun in the world (and I really enjoyed the nonsense that was spouted - all though not all of it is nonsense), the people giving the course do have a crowd control problem. They want interaction from the group, but not very much. They need need to get through the course material, but not get distracted and drawn into debate, especially antagonistic (what a load of nonsense) debate. So they like answers to their questions, tolerate genuine questions being asked, but discourage opposite points of view especially from smart arses (such as me). They basically ignore the latter and talk over them. It's a bit annoying but understandable.

To be told to shut up or be excluded, the poster must have been a particularly arsey smart arse!

BTW I love this huge debate about gears and speeds all prompted by a throw away old wives' tale from the instructor. It's a bit like my granny saying never a borrower nor a lender be and having a treatise about how the economy and capitalism depends on debt instruments thrown back at her.

Bert