Crash with blue light running police car

[vikingaero]

gazza285 said:

The excess has been returned.

Suggesting the Police were at fault? But the Police can't be at fault... blue lights... sirens.... argumentative PH'ers explode...

[LeoSayer]

Sounds like the right outcome. Thanks for the update.

[98elise]

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

Why would a motorist have to check it's clear but not an emergency vehicle driver, especially when driving though a red light?

[MustangGT]

98elise said:

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

Why would a motorist have to check it's clear but not an emergency vehicle driver, especially when driving though a red light?

Because that is the law in Germany.

[monthou]

MustangGT said:

98elise said:

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

Why would a motorist have to check it's clear but not an emergency vehicle driver, especially when driving though a red light?

Because that is the law in Germany.

It may be but you haven't evidenced it.

[MustangGT]

monthou said:

MustangGT said:

98elise said:

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

Why would a motorist have to check it's clear but not an emergency vehicle driver, especially when driving though a red light?

Because that is the law in Germany.

It may be but you haven't evidenced it.

Yes I have, read the whole thread.

[monthou]

MustangGT said:

monthou said:

MustangGT said:

98elise said:

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

Why would a motorist have to check it's clear but not an emergency vehicle driver, especially when driving though a red light?

Because that is the law in Germany.

It may be but you haven't evidenced it.

Yes I have, read the whole thread.

If you think your post on the previous page proves your claim then... okay.

[Missy Charm]

monthou said:

MustangGT said:

monthou said:

MustangGT said:

98elise said:

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

Why would a motorist have to check it's clear but not an emergency vehicle driver, especially when driving though a red light?

Because that is the law in Germany.

It may be but you haven't evidenced it.

Yes I have, read the whole thread.

If you think your post on the previous page proves your claim then... okay.

It would also be really easy to apportion blame if the accident had happened on Mars, where the rule is that all hovercars must give way to flying saucers except where driven by Ming the Merciless on urgent Flash Gordon busting business.

Glad the OP got a good result.

[Short Grain]

Missy Charm said:

It would also be really easy to apportion blame if the accident had happened on Mars, where the rule is that all hovercars must give way to flying saucers except where driven by Ming the Merciless on urgent Flash Gordon busting business.

Glad the OP got a good result.

Or Brian Blessed screaming "Nee Naw Nee Naw" at full volume as he glides through the lights!

[Gareth79]

MustangGT said:

monthou said:

MustangGT said:

98elise said:

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

Why would a motorist have to check it's clear but not an emergency vehicle driver, especially when driving though a red light?

Because that is the law in Germany.

It may be but you haven't evidenced it.

Yes I have, read the whole thread.

One citation was a UK breakdown company's website, which vaguely mentions about "priority", which could mean as little as drivers having to pull over to make way.

In the other text, the only wording with any real meaning was the text you bolded "All other road users must make way immediately” which does not in any way suggest that a vehicle crossing through green lights is at fault if a vehicle on red hits them.

An ordinary reading of the text is exactly same as the meaning of blue lights in the UK.

[MustangGT]

Gareth79 said:

MustangGT said:

monthou said:

MustangGT said:

98elise said:

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

Why would a motorist have to check it's clear but not an emergency vehicle driver, especially when driving though a red light?

Because that is the law in Germany.

It may be but you haven't evidenced it.

Yes I have, read the whole thread.

One citation was a UK breakdown company's website, which vaguely mentions about "priority", which could mean as little as drivers having to pull over to make way.

In the other text, the only wording with any real meaning was the text you bolded "All other road users must make way immediately” which does not in any way suggest that a vehicle crossing through green lights is at fault if a vehicle on red hits them.

An ordinary reading of the text is exactly same as the meaning of blue lights in the UK.

You are reading it with a UK mindset. Try not giving way in Germany and you end up in court. I have heard of several cases (many years ago) of a similar circumstance to the OP, where the OP (wife) have been successfully prosecuted. This was whilst I lived in the EU and travelled through and into Germany a lot.

[monthou]

MustangGT said:

You are reading it with a UK mindset. Try not giving way in Germany and you end up in court. I have heard of several cases (many years ago) of a similar circumstance to the OP, where the OP (wife) have been successfully prosecuted. This was whilst I lived in the EU and travelled through and into Germany a lot.

Great. But you haven't evidenced what you claimed.
In Germany drivers have to get out of the way of emergency vehicles - so for example you'll see everyone make an emergency lane on the autobahn - and potentially be prosecuted if they don't. That's very different to saying any crash with an emergency vehicle at traffic lights is automatically your fault.

[Rushjob]

Just spoken to my friend Gerd, a former German cop.

If you didn't get out of the way of him, the ambulance or the fire service when on blue lights ( no sirens necessary ) you were going to court.

Also if you tried to use the emergency passage created on multi lane roads on the approach to an incident, a bit like running the hard shoulder in the UK, you would be arrested and most likely lose your licence.

[monthou]

Rushjob said:

Just spoken to my friend Gerd, a former German cop.

If you didn't get out of the way of him, the ambulance or the fire service when on blue lights ( no sirens necessary ) you were going to court.

Also if you tried to use the emergency passage created on multi lane roads on the approach to an incident, a bit like running the hard shoulder in the UK, you would be arrested and most likely lose your licence.

That's still not the same as saying he can't be at fault in an accident - whatever he does.
Maybe ask Gerd?

[Rushjob]

monthou said:

That's still not the same as saying he can't be at fault in an accident - whatever he does.
Maybe ask Gerd?

It's been explained several times that it's the drivers duty under German law not to impede emergency vehicles

I'd hazard a guess that crashing into one would most likely be seen in a negative light by a German Court

You're coming across as the type who'd drive down the hard shoulder in the UK as you're to important to wait patiently when there's a crash

[monthou]

Rushjob said:

monthou said:

That's still not the same as saying he can't be at fault in an accident - whatever he does.
Maybe ask Gerd?

It's been explained several times that it's the drivers duty under German law not to impede emergency vehicles

I'd hazard a guess that crashing into one would most likely be seen in a negative light by a German Court

You're coming across as the type who'd drive down the hard shoulder in the UK as you're to important to wait patiently when there's a crash

Not so. And there's nothing in my posts that suggests anything about the way I drive.
So that says more about you than me.

[InitialDave]

Rushjob said:

You're coming across as the type who'd drive down the hard shoulder in the UK as you're to important to wait patiently when there's a crash

No, he isn't. His point is quite clear, and fairly sensible.

The requirement to give way to emergency vehicles does not mean it cannot be the emergency vehicle driver's fault if they hit someone.

If you wish to show he is wrong, you need to show where in law it says that this would be the position. That any collision with an emergency vehicle is automatically the fault of the other driver.

I do not think you will be able to show this, as I do not think it exists.

It is entirely possible for the emergency vehicle driver to both have priority and be negligent.

[leef44]

MustangGT said:

It would be really easy in Germany, IIRC any collision of this sort is always the fault of the motorist, not the emergency services, based on the fact they should check it was clear.

For example, an emergency services vehicle travelling at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) will travel approximately 30 yards a second. 3 seconds means less than a 100 yards away. Easily spottable if paying attention at most junctions.

This may have been the case for the Op's wife. She sees the car coming at a late stage due to the blind junction, has 3 seconds to react and she brakes to a stop.

However, at the speed at which the emergency vehicle approached the junction, the driver may have not anticipated that the Op's wife would impede his path. He takes evasive action and avoids hitting the driver's door and ends up just catching the front wing and bumper. Remember this is where the emergency vehicle was approaching at speed through a red light as opposed to slowing down to approach it with caution.

I was not there so cannot say that this is exactly what happened, but this would be an example where I think the rule cannot be black and white. So if this was Germany, I would have thought the blame still lied with the emergency vehicle.

[Rushjob]

leef44 said:

I was not there so cannot say that this is exactly what happened, but this would be an example where I think the rule cannot be black and white. So if this was Germany, I would have thought the blame still lied with the emergency vehicle.

That sentence is where the whole discussion hinges.

The problem that your argument will come up against is that in Germany it IS in black and white.

The German civil law system states that you WILL give way in such circumstances.

English law, will, however allow for an argument as to what is reasonable to assume under the circumstances.

But we were specifically referencing German law which says this about giving way.....

"A person who has to give way must clearly and in good time show, by means of appropriate driving behaviour, especially by reducing their speed, that they are going to wait. They may only proceed if they can see that they will neither endanger nor substantially impede a road user who has the right of way. If they are unable to see this because the intersection or junction has limited visibility, they may carefully advance onto the intersection or junction until they have a clear view. Nor must a road user who is obliged to give way substantially impede a road user who has the right of way"

The law there says that emergency vehicles have priority, and that you must give way, ergo........

[leef44]

Rushjob said:

leef44 said:

I was not there so cannot say that this is exactly what happened, but this would be an example where I think the rule cannot be black and white. So if this was Germany, I would have thought the blame still lied with the emergency vehicle.

That sentence is where the whole discussion hinges.

The problem that your argument will come up against is that in Germany it IS in black and white.

The German civil law system states that you WILL give way in such circumstances.

English law, will, however allow for an argument as to what is reasonable to assume under the circumstances.

But we were specifically referencing German law which says this about giving way.....

"A person who has to give way must clearly and in good time show, by means of appropriate driving behaviour, especially by reducing their speed, that they are going to wait. They may only proceed if they can see that they will neither endanger nor substantially impede a road user who has the right of way. If they are unable to see this because the intersection or junction has limited visibility, they may carefully advance onto the intersection or junction until they have a clear view. Nor must a road user who is obliged to give way substantially impede a road user who has the right of way"

The law there says that emergency vehicles have priority, and that you must give way, ergo........

I think that is open to interpretation. MustangGT showed the wording of the law where it related to a roundabout which is different from a red traffic light situation.

And also the bit quoted re priority to emergency vehicle looked like it was similar to UK Highway code i.e. blue light behind you, pull over or make way for their priority. It didn't specific say for when emergency service go through red line especially through a blind junction at speed.

Although it was useful to learn from MustangGT that most likely the law would lean in favour towards emergency vehicle in general in court.