Warning Drivers about Speed Traps !
Discussion
kenp said:That doesn't hold in this context, otherwise Ted would have called this forum Speed, Plod and the ASS.
Problems arise when people carry the colloquial term across into the speciality and insist on giving it the same colloquial meaning and since this is the 'Speed,Plod & the LAW' forum it might be important to give legal terms their legal meaning and not their colloquial meaning, otherwise we are all wasting our time here.
kenp said:That definition is half wrong: the middle point in a set of data is the median, not the average.
Average in this context means majority. So how can the majority think that they are better than the majority?
No it doesn't. Not under any definition does average mean the majority. It is the same sloppy use of mathematics that others are accused in the legal aspects of the post.
>> Edited by bluepolarbear on Sunday 1st January 13:10
taken from http://math.about.com/library/bla.htm "Average - The middle or most common in a set of data."
and I would submit that is how most interviewees would understand the question if asked 'do you consider yourself to be a) below average b)average c) above average'.
I don't know if anyone retorted with 'by average are we using mode, mean or median?'. It is nothing to do with sloppy use of mathematics, it was a question for the average Joe to grade himself against three widely understood, colloquial standards. People use and understand words like 'decimate', but don't necessarily mean 'to kill one in ten' nor is it sloppy mathematics. Mathematicians do not have a monopoly on words like 'divide, plus, minus, average etc'. They are widely understood in colloquial terms by people in their everyday conversation. Problems arise when people carry the colloquial term across into the speciality and insist on giving it the same colloquial meaning and since this is the 'Speed,Plod & the LAW' forum it might be important to give legal terms their legal meaning and not their colloquial meaning, otherwise we are all wasting our time here.
Most people I know when talking about an average are referring to the arthimitcal average.
If you take 5 drivers and asses their skill on a scale of 1 to 10 as 9,9,9,9 and 1 then 80% percent of drivers are indeed better than the average.
People use legal and mathematical arguments to add weight to their argument. It is important that both don't use colloquial terms. The statement as orginally quoted is trotted out by numerous people including in the past Chief Constables in an attempt to demostrate that the individual isn't as good at driving as they think and therefore their argument around whatever driving topic being discussed is invalid.
The statement is meaningless as it doesn't define % of what, sample size, average or error margins. More importantly it remains wrong even when using colloquial terms and vague assumptions about the question and sample size.
If you take 5 drivers and asses their skill on a scale of 1 to 10 as 9,9,9,9 and 1 then 80% percent of drivers are indeed better than the average.
kenp said:
Mathematicians do not have a monopoly on words like 'divide, plus, minus, average etc'. They are widely understood in colloquial terms by people in their everyday conversation. Problems arise when people carry the colloquial term across into the speciality and insist on giving it the same colloquial meaning and since this is the 'Speed,Plod & the LAW' forum it might be important to give legal terms their legal meaning and not their colloquial meaning, otherwise we are all wasting our time here.
People use legal and mathematical arguments to add weight to their argument. It is important that both don't use colloquial terms. The statement as orginally quoted is trotted out by numerous people including in the past Chief Constables in an attempt to demostrate that the individual isn't as good at driving as they think and therefore their argument around whatever driving topic being discussed is invalid.
The statement is meaningless as it doesn't define % of what, sample size, average or error margins. More importantly it remains wrong even when using colloquial terms and vague assumptions about the question and sample size.
Zod said:
That definition is half wrong: the middle point in a set of data is the median, not the average.
I would use average as a term for any of mean, mode or median, selecting the most appropriate for the data set (notice that "appropriate" is subject to interpretation). Confusion arises as they coincide (or nearly coincide) in many samples (ie ones which are normally distributed).
I am a mathematician.
7db said:
I am a mathematician.
Sounds like the opening of a Huge Grant movie 'Arithmeticians Anonymous' "Hi, I'm 7db and I'm a mathematician"
Fellow sufferer "Go on then, say something in algebra"
Don't get set in a complex over it, you'll just get tensor and tensor. After all it's important to differentiate between averages or things get absurd
sorry
kenp said:Ken, your continued referral to the HoL decision and reference to the internet for a definition of average are clearly clouding your ability to think for yourself.
taken from http://math.about.com/library/bla.htm "Average - The middle or most common in a set of data."
The definition of average you have given omits to mention the mean, which is what most people would consider to be the usual meaning of average.
The House of Lords decision you mention deals with an entirely different situation. You cannot be wilfully obstructing a police officer by preventing the commission of a crime; you can be by preventing the police in their duty investigating a crime. So what you think the law is currently and what it actually is are different; that is why the discussion has been going on for 7 pages.
SJobson said:Kenp seems to think he is an infallible fount of legal knowledge. He appears to believe (notwithstandin that he shows understanding of the constitutional law doctrine that Parliament cannot bind its successors) that the current state of the law as he understands it to be is set in stone. I think he may be a Crown prosecutor.
taken from http://math.about.com/library/bla.htm "Average - The middle or most common in a set of data."
The definition of average you have given omits to mention the mean, which is what most people would consider to be the usual meaning of average.
The House of Lords decision you mention deals with an entirely different situation. You cannot be wilfully obstructing a police officer by preventing the commission of a crime; you can be by preventing the police in their duty investigating a crime. So what you think the law is currently and what it actually is are different; that is why the discussion has been going on for 7 pages.
SJobson continues with the better argument that several of us have put forward on this thread: the argument that actually has logic on its side (and law does tend to follow logic wherever possible).
>> Edited by Zod on Monday 2nd January 16:15
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff