Driver Awareness Course - bizarre advice?
Discussion
jonwm said:
I was in one a few years ago and remember the sport mode advise on mine.
He also said a general public driver should never go above 80 as the brain struggles to take things in or something like that. Police offers had special training to deal with such high speed driving
There is some truth in that - but I find it happens at 120mph, not 80mph.He also said a general public driver should never go above 80 as the brain struggles to take things in or something like that. Police offers had special training to deal with such high speed driving
I just can't sustain 120+ for any length of time, everything happens so quickly and the concentration needed means you tire very easily.
BertBert said:
BTW I love this huge debate about gears and speeds all prompted by a throw away old wives' tale from the instructor. It's a bit like my granny saying never a borrower nor a lender be and having a treatise about how the economy and capitalism depends on debt instruments thrown back at her.
Bert
That sounds like a PistonHeads thread, yeah.Bert
BertBert said:
BTW I love this huge debate about gears and speeds all prompted by a throw away old wives' tale from the instructor. It's a bit like my granny saying never a borrower nor a lender be and having a treatise about how the economy and capitalism depends on debt instruments thrown back at her.
Good point BertBert 
Why bother debating the diktat from granny alias moronic SAC presenter? I've been drawn into this debate but I should know better. In reality it's all b
ks 
xjay1337 said:
poppopbangbang said:
I had an experience several years ago where a similar sort of chap told the room with a straight face that "a professional driver can always stop quicker without ABS but it makes you lot safer because you aren't that skilled". I questioned this based on my experience of calibrating Bosch ABS systems for motosport and road car use along with, at the time, being a paid test driver which eventually resulted in being told to be quite or I would be marked as having not attended.
The only thing more terrifying than the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability members of the public have is the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability those who are supposed to improve the general publics motoring ability have.
This is one thing I don't understandThe only thing more terrifying than the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability members of the public have is the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability those who are supposed to improve the general publics motoring ability have.
Surely knowledge transfer can go both ways and it seems pretty childish to say shut up or you'll be marked as not attending?
What a load of s
t.It's not just driving though, I find many unthruths are so engrained in the majority of people that if you try and educate them with the actual truth with evidence they get very upset and shouty.
Ari said:
For automatics it got even more bizarre. His advice was, when entering a 40mph or 30mph limit, you should put the gearbox into Sport Mode. This, he reckoned, would engage another set of lower gears, therefore making it easier to control the car speed. Once back on NSL roads, put it back in Comfort Mode.
Now I know for a fact that's utter nonsense. I've driven autos for years, Sport Mode makes the car more responsive to the throttle, kicking down a gear or two more quickly and letting the revs build higher when accelerating firmly. But they still revert to whatever gear you'd be in if you'd selected Comfort Mode when on an even throttle (as you would be most of the time when coasting through a 30mph zone). If anything, I'd have thought it's going to give the inept less car control as it will be more eager to kick down and accelerate.
Well there you go, you did learn something. Many of the new generation of automatics (S-Tronic, DSG, other automated manual boxes, 7G-Tronic certainly in AMG trim) do hold lower gears than when they're in "Comfort". Must be great to know that you have some new knowledge.Now I know for a fact that's utter nonsense. I've driven autos for years, Sport Mode makes the car more responsive to the throttle, kicking down a gear or two more quickly and letting the revs build higher when accelerating firmly. But they still revert to whatever gear you'd be in if you'd selected Comfort Mode when on an even throttle (as you would be most of the time when coasting through a 30mph zone). If anything, I'd have thought it's going to give the inept less car control as it will be more eager to kick down and accelerate.
Poppiecock said:
There is some truth in that - but I find it happens at 120mph, not 80mph.
I just can't sustain 120+ for any length of time, everything happens so quickly and the concentration needed means you tire very easily.
Yes I agree. Indicated 200km/h (124mph) is a realistic sustained speed on autobahns. Go over 130mph and the concentration needed increases exponentially which is very tiring.I just can't sustain 120+ for any length of time, everything happens so quickly and the concentration needed means you tire very easily.
I drive at a genuine 150mph on race circuits (and would go faster space permitting) but I'm concentrating hard for relatively short periods. Also the track environment is safer in the event of a high speed incident.
Buster73 said:
Ari said:
I didn't bother querying it for that reason and for not wanting to be there any longer than absolutely necessary. Nearly bit through my tongue keeping my mouth shut though! 
I have an email address for the course, wondering whether to write in and suggest they check their facts a little more carefully.
I’d damn well email them and mention the threat to mark you as absent , don’t know the legal implications but it could pervert the course of justice at a minor level ?I have an email address for the course, wondering whether to write in and suggest they check their facts a little more carefully.
bigdog3 said:
The throttle is a critical device. In lower gears, small changes in throttle opening result in greater changes of acceleration (and speed). How does dropping down a couple of cogs help control speed ???
More throttle is required to cause an engine to want to rev faster at 3000rpm than at 1500rpm. A problem most aptly demonstrated in my E63, where small changes in throttle made greater impact to the overall speed, but if you were in a lower gear not only did you need more throttle to generate an increase in revs, you also noticed that change more quickly.I imagine the idea of lower gears in lower limits is based upon more effective engine braking when coming off the throttle.
Car design, efficiency and safety often have conflicts of interest.
Our Volvo estate bus weighs nearly 2 tonnes and in 'eco' mode will coast off throttle. This soon becomes a right royal pain in the arse on single carriageways in streams of traffic, as you hit a downhill and gain speed faster than the traffic in front. Means I don't tend to use it other than on the motorway, which isn't really the best environment either, as the anticipation distance you need to avoid using the brakes is massively increased.
One size fits all advice on these courses is all very well, but I doubt it's compatible with some advances in technology. When the advice is clearly wrong, it damages the credibility of the course as a whole.
It doesn't really matter, as the whole course system as designed is there to make profit and take pressure/cost off the justice system and onto the motorist.
Car design, efficiency and safety often have conflicts of interest.
Our Volvo estate bus weighs nearly 2 tonnes and in 'eco' mode will coast off throttle. This soon becomes a right royal pain in the arse on single carriageways in streams of traffic, as you hit a downhill and gain speed faster than the traffic in front. Means I don't tend to use it other than on the motorway, which isn't really the best environment either, as the anticipation distance you need to avoid using the brakes is massively increased.
One size fits all advice on these courses is all very well, but I doubt it's compatible with some advances in technology. When the advice is clearly wrong, it damages the credibility of the course as a whole.
It doesn't really matter, as the whole course system as designed is there to make profit and take pressure/cost off the justice system and onto the motorist.
caiss4 said:
I advise my students to use 3rd for 30mph zones! I do discuss the reasons why with them.
Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I completely understand why you do this but, having been stuck behind a learner doing 27-28mph in a 30mph limit that should be a 40mph limit based on the 85th percentile traffic speeds and a road layout that's not changed for decades but has had the speed limit reduced, it is also incredibly frustrating and causes tailgating and risky overtaking.Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I am dreading the day that 'Intelligent' Speed Adaptation becomes active (2022 unless we do something about it now...) because it will just mean crawling trains of cars stuck behind someone that thinks sticking to a number that the car tells them is the limit makes them safe.
I know you are not teaching that, and I'm sure you are fully aware of how appropriate speeds vary from second to second and do not depend on the sign, but any test that is 100% rigid in its application WRT numbers on a pole vs numbers on a dial, regardless of road conditions, is surely unrepresentative of real life and setting people up to cause issues on the road when they are eventually driving on their own?
[/off topic]
bigdog3 said:
I was trying to explain the term "critical device" in layman's terms but unfortunately even that appears to have gone over your head.
Please don't take offence, as none meant, however you don't appear to be very good with people. Maybe you could host some speed awareness courses?
RSTurboPaul said:
caiss4 said:
I advise my students to use 3rd for 30mph zones! I do discuss the reasons why with them.
Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I completely understand why you do this but, having been stuck behind a learner doing 27-28mph in a 30mph limit that should be a 40mph limit based on the 85th percentile traffic speeds and a road layout that's not changed for decades but has had the speed limit reduced, it is also incredibly frustrating and causes tailgating and risky overtaking.Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I am dreading the day that 'Intelligent' Speed Adaptation becomes active (2022 unless we do something about it now...) because it will just mean crawling trains of cars stuck behind someone that thinks sticking to a number that the car tells them is the limit makes them safe.
I know you are not teaching that, and I'm sure you are fully aware of how appropriate speeds vary from second to second and do not depend on the sign, but any test that is 100% rigid in its application WRT numbers on a pole vs numbers on a dial, regardless of road conditions, is surely unrepresentative of real life and setting people up to cause issues on the road when they are eventually driving on their own?
[/off topic]
A small isolated overspeed shouldn't be resulting in a fail for them on test.
RSTurboPaul said:
I am dreading the day that 'Intelligent' Speed Adaptation becomes active (2022 unless we do something about it now...) because it will just mean crawling trains of cars stuck behind someone that thinks sticking to a number that the car tells them is the limit makes them safe.
Like you Paul, initially I dreaded the introduction of 'Intelligent' Speed Adaptation but I'm changed my mind. ISA is so ridiculous and authoritarian that it's a joke. Now I can hardly wait for the ensuing chaos and mayhem Regarding doing something about it, I just can't see it happening. I've tried to instigate some interest but response was limited and often negative. Moaning is easier than taking action.
Despite safety concerns, according to experts two-thirds of the drivers are in favour of ISA deciding their correct speed:
https://www.geoffreyinsurance.com/motor-news/octob...
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6...
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