S172 - Registration mark fails to conform.

[Pica-Pica]

Scotty2 said:

I got stopped the other week (MOT had expired - my fault £100).
I was also charged with having "illegal Plates" for which they want another £100.

However my plates are the same plates the car had when I bought it 4 years ago, and it has passed 4 MOTs at 3 different garages since with no comment. The Policeman said "The rules have changed..."

I didn't think the law was retrospective and that the plates were OK for a car registered in 1997.

The issue apparently is that my plates have an Isle of Man flag as opposed to a UK flag, and they have a honeycomb background with "Thunderbird 2" in small script where the new plates have the post code of the supplier. The spacing is fine.

I have other cars without a UK flag as they are mostly old vehicles with standard plates. Does this mean I have to change them all? I see many vehicles on the road with no UK flag so who is correct?

I'm hoping that the cars plates are OK for a 1997 vehicle and they are in error. How do I contest it, or was the Policeman correct??

I have no flag on my plates, it came without them from new, as a ‘66 plate. You do not have to have any flag to drive a U.K. registered car in the U.K. (not sure about NI tbh). I assume if you do have a flag, then it has to be legal.

[Durzel]

Scotty2 said:

So you are saying the rule changes are retrospective, and I have to change all my plates on all my cars?

e.g. My 1960 Morris Minor has simple black and silver plates with no BS number.
A few of my others have B&W, B&Y fronts and backs with no BS number.

Older cars have different rules, as far as black & silver plates go (I got pulled and given a VDRS for black & silver plates on a 2004 car).

In as far as your 1997 car goes, I don't think it qualifies for any exemptions. In terms of retrospectiveness - yes, if something becomes illegal then obviously you can't just carry on having illegal plates because they're already on the car. If you think about it - how would anyone get prosecuted for this offence if they could simply say "the car came with them" ?

For the absence of doubt - not having a BS mark and having an IoM flag (or any other logo) are not legal.

[InitialDave]

I think if you didn't have the flag, and it was just that your plates were made to the specs current in 1997 (even if made now), I suspect you may have swerved that one.

[anonymous-user]

Scotty2 said:

The issue apparently is that my plates have an Isle of Man flag....

I don't think you have three legs to stand on.

[MustangGT]

Durzel said:

Scotty2 said:

So you are saying the rule changes are retrospective, and I have to change all my plates on all my cars?

e.g. My 1960 Morris Minor has simple black and silver plates with no BS number.
A few of my others have B&W, B&Y fronts and backs with no BS number.

Older cars have different rules, as far as black & silver plates go (I got pulled and given a VDRS for black & silver plates on a 2004 car).

In as far as your 1997 car goes, I don't think it qualifies for any exemptions. In terms of retrospectiveness - yes, if something becomes illegal then obviously you can't just carry on having illegal plates because they're already on the car. If you think about it - how would anyone get prosecuted for this offence if they could simply say "the car came with them" ?

For the absence of doubt - not having a BS mark and having an IoM flag (or any other logo) are not legal.

Correct, it was somewhere in the mid-70s that black and silver plates were no longer legal to be fitted. 1960s cars are fine with black and silver plates. Other changes since then include the requirements to display the BS info and the manufacturer post code. If your car was registered after the date this was brought in then it must display the correct info on the plate. Since Brexit changes include GB changing to UK. When travelling abroad you will need a UK sticker rather than GB. No requirement for flags on number plates yet (IIRC).

[Armchair_Expert]

Interesting that this thread is resurrected. You have been seriously unlucky to get a ticket for no BS mark if the plate is otherwise legal, whoever issued that needs to be ashamed of themselves, unless there were other factors at play but only you know what happened with your stop.

As for spacing - plenty, in fact lots of cars at PH Sunday Service showing great plates with some slightly altered spacing. No issues on the day, and no backchat from anyone on the photos thread either. Probably because the plates were in good taste, no silly fonts, fully legible and no biscuit taking. So why is it you get some particularly sad posters who feel the need to trawl through historic posts in an effort to shame another poster, whereas in the real world plates that have been even more doctored with don't raise a murmur from the PH majority?

[Scotty2]

Just to put a stop to the usual PH speculation...
Driving within speed limit (40). Car stopped as flagged up as no insurance (false), no MOT (true), no Tax (true), as it ran out end of Feb and I forgot to renew MOT/Tax due to my wife "filing away" th ereminder so I forgot all about it. My insurance auto renewed on the Friday, Police computer does not update over the weekend...Luckily my phone had the renewal e-mail.

Gov Website says:

be made from a reflective material
display black characters on a white background (front plate)
display black characters on a yellow background (rear plate)
not have a background pattern
be marked to show who supplied the number plate
be marked with a British Standard number - this is ‘BS AU 145e’ for plates fitted after 1 September 2021

So he is wrong to say I needed BS number, but the Honeycomb is wrong, and it doesn't say from what date it needs to show who supplied the plate??

[Cant Find a Charger when I need one]

Scotty2 said:

Just to put a stop to the usual PH speculation...
Driving within speed limit (40). Car stopped as flagged up as no insurance (false), no MOT (true), no Tax (true), as it ran out end of Feb and I forgot to renew MOT/Tax due to my wife "filing away" th ereminder so I forgot all about it. My insurance auto renewed on the Friday, Police computer does not update over the weekend...Luckily my phone had the renewal e-mail.

Gov Website says:

be made from a reflective material
display black characters on a white background (front plate)
display black characters on a yellow background (rear plate)
not have a background pattern
be marked to show who supplied the number plate
be marked with a British Standard number - this is ‘BS AU 145e’ for plates fitted after 1 September 2021

So he is wrong to say I needed BS number, but the Honeycomb is wrong, and it doesn't say from what date it needs to show who supplied the plate??

The BS number has been a requirement for a good few years now...... i remember having to get my plates made up to that standard when i had pressed metal ones made up in 2010

Here you go

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561

Right at the start of Schedule 2




The thing is any legal numberplate supplier will tell you this or very clearly make you aware the plates are show plates only. There is NO excuse

Edited by Cant Find a Charger when I need one on Wednesday 30th March 15:45

Edited by Cant Find a Charger when I need one on Wednesday 30th March 15:47

[Chebble]

outnumbered said:

Riley Blue said:

Armchair_Expert said:

When I see others with personal plates, it tells me first and foremost that they clearly love cars / their car and have made the effort to go one step beyond a day to day driver - it makes them stand out as interesting, something different, a passionate car driver or owner. I would even go as far to say that I therefore believe they may be a better driver, a more engaging and interesting person maybe?

This ^^^^ has made me smile more than anything else I've read on PH recently. Thanks, AE, you've cheered me up no end.

It’s worthy of PH meme-hood. And I admit this as a personal plate owner

What on earth have I just read?

‘a better driver, more engaging and interesting person maybe?’

[Durzel]

Scotty2 said:

Just to put a stop to the usual PH speculation...
Driving within speed limit (40). Car stopped as flagged up as no insurance (false), no MOT (true), no Tax (true), as it ran out end of Feb and I forgot to renew MOT/Tax due to my wife "filing away" th ereminder so I forgot all about it. My insurance auto renewed on the Friday, Police computer does not update over the weekend...Luckily my phone had the renewal e-mail.

Gov Website says:

be made from a reflective material
display black characters on a white background (front plate)
display black characters on a yellow background (rear plate)
not have a background pattern
be marked to show who supplied the number plate
be marked with a British Standard number - this is ‘BS AU 145e’ for plates fitted after 1 September 2021

So he is wrong to say I needed BS number, but the Honeycomb is wrong, and it doesn't say from what date it needs to show who supplied the plate??

What that directive is saying is that "BS AU 145e" is (or was) the latest number as of 01/09/2021, so would be expected to be seen on any 71 plate car onwards, not that it didn't need to have a BS mark at all before that date. The BS number requirement has been in place since September 2001 if memory serves.

Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 30th March 15:57

[Scotty2]

Yes, but the car is a 1997 Rover 800, so pre 2001

[Durzel]

Scotty2 said:

Yes, but the car is a 1997 Rover 800, so pre 2001

Good point. I would dispute it on that basis then.

[Red9zero]

Durzel said:

Scotty2 said:

Yes, but the car is a 1997 Rover 800, so pre 2001

Good point. I would dispute it on that basis then.

IIRC the plates have to have been made pre 2001. If you have the later font, that is probably a giveaway. I have pre 2001 font plates, with no postcode or BS number, on my 1986 Land Rover that were made pre 2001 (honest officer).

[Cant Find a Charger when I need one]

Durzel said:

Scotty2 said:

Yes, but the car is a 1997 Rover 800, so pre 2001

Good point. I would dispute it on that basis then.

I'd only discount it if the car is still wearing 20year old plates......if they have been fitted more recently then they need to conform. Given they have a honeycomb background i'd say they were sold more recently than that as showplates at a guess

[Durzel]

Cant Find a Charger when I need one said:

Durzel said:

Scotty2 said:

Yes, but the car is a 1997 Rover 800, so pre 2001

Good point. I would dispute it on that basis then.

I'd only discount it if the car is still wearing 20year old plates......if they have been fitted more recently then they need to conform. Given they have a honeycomb background i'd say they were sold more recently than that as showplates at a guess

Again, good point. I just did some digging and whilst I can't find anything absolutely definitive about the BS mark there is this which says "the characters on number plates purchased from 1.9.2001 will need to conform to the following specifications", which would strongly suggest - as said above - that once you get new numberplates made up then they have to comply with the current rules, at which point the age of the car wearing them becomes irrelevant.

[Pica-Pica]

Durzel said:

Cant Find a Charger when I need one said:

Durzel said:

Scotty2 said:

Yes, but the car is a 1997 Rover 800, so pre 2001

Good point. I would dispute it on that basis then.

I'd only discount it if the car is still wearing 20year old plates......if they have been fitted more recently then they need to conform. Given they have a honeycomb background i'd say they were sold more recently than that as showplates at a guess

Again, good point. I just did some digging and whilst I can't find anything absolutely definitive about the BS mark there is this which says "the characters on number plates purchased from 1.9.2001 will need to conform to the following specifications", which would strongly suggest - as said above - that once you get new numberplates made up then they have to comply with the current rules, at which point the age of the car wearing them becomes irrelevant.

Clearly the law is saying something like
‘if you have number plates on a car before this date, you are not being forced to change them… But if you change the number plates after that date, then even if they reflect an older car, or an older numbering system, then those new plates must meet the new standard.’

[carl_w]

Pica-Pica said:

Clearly the law is saying something like
‘if you have number plates on a car before this date, you are not being forced to change them… But if you change the number plates after that date, then even if they reflect an older car, or an older numbering system, then those new plates must meet the new standard.’

But on a 1997 car who could tell they hadn't been purchased in 1997? I've had plates made up for a pre-2001 car with the pre-2001 font as I think older cars look crap with the modern font.

The problem is a 1997 plate would have to conform to BS AU 145c which isn't available online although you can buy a copy from the BSI for £192.

[Gareth79]

Scotty2 said:

Just to put a stop to the usual PH speculation...
Driving within speed limit (40). Car stopped as flagged up as no insurance (false), no MOT (true), no Tax (true), as it ran out end of Feb and I forgot to renew MOT/Tax due to my wife "filing away" th ereminder so I forgot all about it. My insurance auto renewed on the Friday, Police computer does not update over the weekend...Luckily my phone had the renewal e-mail.

Gov Website says:

be made from a reflective material
display black characters on a white background (front plate)
display black characters on a yellow background (rear plate)
not have a background pattern
be marked to show who supplied the number plate
be marked with a British Standard number - this is ‘BS AU 145e’ for plates fitted after 1 September 2021

So he is wrong to say I needed BS number, but the Honeycomb is wrong, and it doesn't say from what date it needs to show who supplied the plate??

When was your plate made? If it was after Sept 2001 then it must have the name of the supplier at the bottom. Slogans etc. are prohibited, even if the supplier's name is also there. The BS number has been required on plates even before 2001, but from 2001-2021 it was BSAU145d. IIRC the supplier of the plate AND materials must be displayed on plates since 2021, so for example a "4D" plate made in somebody's bedroom by gluing letters to a plate then it must have the address/postcode of the bedroom, AND whoever made the letters and backing.

Edited by Gareth79 on Wednesday 30th March 18:43

[AlexRS2782]

Armchair_Expert said:

You have been seriously unlucky to get a ticket for no BS mark if the plate is otherwise legal, whoever issued that needs to be ashamed of themselves, unless there were other factors at play but only you know what happened with your stop.

Seems a fairly valid ticket tbh - the poster even confirms exactly why they were given it (further to the original valid reason for the pull) but seems to be complaining over the BS mark references in the hope of using that as a get out clause.

They originally got pulled for no valid MOT and, as it turns out in another post from the poster, it seems they had no valid Tax either at the time. Then there's the fact that the guy is running around on a set of designer plates with an Isle of Man flag on (not legal) which is embossed with a honeycomb look background with "Thunderbird 2" ghosted in it.

Scotty2 said:

I got stopped the other week (MOT had expired - my fault £100).
...
The issue apparently is that my plates have an Isle of Man flag as opposed to a UK flag, and they have a honeycomb background with "Thunderbird 2" in small script where the new plates have the post code of the supplier.
...
Driving within speed limit (40). Car stopped as flagged up as no insurance (false), no MOT (true), no Tax (true), as it ran out end of Feb and I forgot to renew MOT/Tax due to my wife "filing away" the reminder so I forgot all about it.

[MustangGT]

Durzel said:

Scotty2 said:

Just to put a stop to the usual PH speculation...
Driving within speed limit (40). Car stopped as flagged up as no insurance (false), no MOT (true), no Tax (true), as it ran out end of Feb and I forgot to renew MOT/Tax due to my wife "filing away" th ereminder so I forgot all about it. My insurance auto renewed on the Friday, Police computer does not update over the weekend...Luckily my phone had the renewal e-mail.

Gov Website says:

be made from a reflective material
display black characters on a white background (front plate)
display black characters on a yellow background (rear plate)
not have a background pattern
be marked to show who supplied the number plate
be marked with a British Standard number - this is ‘BS AU 145e’ for plates fitted after 1 September 2021

So he is wrong to say I needed BS number, but the Honeycomb is wrong, and it doesn't say from what date it needs to show who supplied the plate??

What that directive is saying is that "BS AU 145e" is (or was) the latest number as of 01/09/2021, so would be expected to be seen on any 71 plate car onwards, not that it didn't need to have a BS mark at all before that date. The BS number requirement has been in place since September 2001 if memory serves.

Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 30th March 15:57

Almost, the BS145 has been required since 1973. this means Scotty's Rover definitely needs it.