ANPR at the pump.....

[Themoss]

Why are you all talking about 'Big Brother'? If you drive an insured and taxed vehicle registered in your name, you are NOT going to get stopped at an ANPR site!! Stop continually having a go at Plod, why can't some of you for a change just say "yes, actually i think that's a good idea".

Some of you slag off ANPR (which is NOT a revenue making sceme like speed camera's, which i DETEST as much as everyone else here.)
You same people then moan about uninsured unregistered vehicles on the road and how the Police "do nothing about it", So, they create ANPR to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, and you moan about that!!!!!

[Tafia]

james_j said:

I'm not in favour of anything "big brother" and what makes me really angry is people who say "...if you nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about..." Surveillance of the innocent cizizen is just creeping up on us, ever increasing bit by bit. Surely, if someone wanted to drive off from the forecourt without paying or to hide themselves in any way, they would put on a set of plates they already knew belonged to a similar car. It's pathetically easy; OK, you'll catch some thickos, but so what. They real criminals will get away easily and Mr and Ms Honest will be monitored more and more.

Dead right James. I'm with you.

Oddly, when I read the Brunstrom report in Police magazine, (see earlier thread) he referred to ANPR, not as Automatic Number Plate Recognition,which is what it is purported to be, but Automatic Registration Number Project. Project?? What's this?

Freudian slip????? Something else behind this technology??

[Streetcop]

Themoss said:

Why are you all talking about 'Big Brother'? If you drive an insured and taxed vehicle registered in your name, you are NOT going to get stopped at an ANPR site!! Stop continually having a go at Plod, why can't some of you for a change just say "yes, actually i think that's a good idea". Some of you slag off ANPR (which is NOT a revenue making sceme like speed camera's, which i DETEST as much as everyone else here.) You same people then moan about uninsured unregistered vehicles on the road and how the Police "do nothing about it", So, they create ANPR to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, and you moan about that!!!!!

Street

[just dave]

Regarding gas purchases- here (US) most states have "self service" gas stations, where you pump your own gas AFTER you pay. And if you have a balance , you go get it. Not a problem. Another option available here are self-service pumps that have a credit card or debit card reader BUILT IN to the pump, which lets you gas up without ever having to speak to the pimply-faced, gum chewing, rap-music-listening-person you don't even want to know where their hands have been, touching your change.
OR, trying to understand what either Abdu, Maleek or Sukarnorowak is attempting to say to you.
/edit/ In the state of Oregon IIRC, they still have "service stations". You are not permitted to pump your own gas!!

As to the ANPR system, what with your (coming) EU mandated GPS devices, an American wise man once said:

"Be afraid, be VERY afraid!"

Dave

>> Edited by just dave on Wednesday 14th July 22:39

[g_attrill]

Streetcop said:

"If you have nothing to hide...you have nothing to worry about..."

Ok, I stop at my local Shell which has ANPR with a database of previous drive-offs at every petrol station in the country.

The pump doesn't start. I look over and the cashier is on the phone - I walk to the door an it's locked. I walk to the window and she says the machine says I have stolen petrol before and she is calling the police.

I haven't, but some scrote has a Vauxford Cavafocus just like mine and with identical plates. For *his* crimes I must now sit and wait for the police to arrive and plead my innocence.

Assuming I have a cast iron alibi, I must now live with defending speeding tickets, congestion charging penalities etc. until I plead with the DVLA to withdraw my registration and issue you with a new one. Of course you must pay for a new set of plates.

ANPR is a good idea but it MUST be used sparingly to avoid an explosion of cloned cars. People are NOT going to drive around with genuine plates for very long if it will get them into trouble!

Gareth





>> Edited by g_attrill on Wednesday 14th July 22:46

[deltaf]

Themoss said:

Why are you all talking about 'Big Brother'? If you drive an insured and taxed vehicle registered in your name, you are NOT going to get stopped at an ANPR site!! Stop continually having a go at Plod, why can't some of you for a change just say "yes, actually i think that's a good idea". Some of you slag off ANPR (which is NOT a revenue making sceme like speed camera's, which i DETEST as much as everyone else here.) You same people then moan about uninsured unregistered vehicles on the road and how the Police "do nothing about it", So, they create ANPR to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, and you moan about that!!!!!

Typical response from someone who dosent understand the ramifications of such an "innocuous" idea.

How long until theyve installed a camera in your street to see if youve been a good boy? Or maybe in your house to check your not slapping the kids for being naughty?
Wheres this "covert surveillence" stop exactly?
Nothing to hide so nothing to worry about.......really?
Ok, ill come and camp outside your house taking photos of everything you do, just in case youre a deviant watching child porn?

Just cos youve done nothing wrong, dosent mean you wont, so we'll watch you just in case.....thats the idea.
By accepting some small infringements in one area of your life, they gain a foothold into other aspects, is that what you want?
So, bearing that in mind, with me camping outside and checking up on you, do you STILL think its a "good idea"?

[Themoss]

Cameras outside your house?! Mate you need to get a grip. ANPR catches CRIMINALS. These are people who are on their way to commit some serious crimes. It has proved to be a great success, and i personally hope it spreads, whilst getting rid of the hated gatso's and camera vans.

'Big Brother?' Nothing annoys me more than people who are lucky enough to live in freedom yet spend the entire time whinging about it. Theres a few too many 'urban rebels' here who have no idea about the real world.

Tell you what, lets just disband the Police entirely, that should protect your 'civil liberties'. Right up until the point you get done over by the kind of people the Police risk their lives protecting you from every day..........

[Streetcop]

Themoss said:

Cameras outside your house?! Mate you need to get a grip. ANPR catches CRIMINALS. These are people who are on their way to commit some serious crimes. It has proved to be a great success, and i personally hope it spreads, whilst getting rid of the hated gatso's and camera vans. 'Big Brother?' Nothing annoys me more than people who are lucky enough to live in freedom yet spend the entire time whinging about it. Theres a few too many 'urban rebels' here who have no idea about the real world. Tell you what, lets just disband the Police entirely, that should protect your 'civil liberties'. Right up until the point you get done over by the kind of people the Police risk their lives protecting you from every day..........

To risk looking obsequious, I must again...



Street

[The Wiz]

Streetcop said:

Good idea... Don't worry about civil liberties crap with 'keeping an eye on normal people' business...catch the crooks.. Street

Great attitude ... personally I do worry about civil liberties. We are already the most spied upon country in Europe and things can only get worse.

[Streetcop]

It's a superb attitude...PAL..

It's been said before and it will again...'If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about'...

Surveillance is here to stay...either get used to it or move to a little island off Scotland.

I suppose you dont carry a mobile phone as many agencies can triangulate and 'ping' your phone to determine where you are and where you've been. You wont ever use cashcards or credit cards as this leaves an auditable trail of where you've been. You wont venture into any cities or town centres due to cctv capturing your image 100s and 1000s of times.

Civil Liberties are the reason that Humberside chose to ditch all the information on Ian Huntley and not retain any to be passed on to other agencies....and look what good that did...PAL!

Nah..you've way off line bleating about civil liberties..

Street

[r32]

Streetcop said:

It's a superb attitude...PAL.. It's been said before and it will again...'If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about'... Surveillance is here to stay...either get used to it or move to a little island off Scotland. I suppose you dont carry a mobile phone as many agencies can triangulate and 'ping' your phone to determine where you are and where you've been. You wont ever use cashcards or credit cards as this leaves an auditable trail of where you've been. You wont venture into any cities or town centres due to cctv capturing your image 100s and 1000s of times. Civil Liberties are the reason that Humberside chose to ditch all the information on Ian Huntley and not retain any to be passed on to other agencies....and look what good that did...PAL! Nah..you've way off line bleating about civil liberties.. Street

Whats to say that eventually the ANPR system owned by private retailers, wont start STORING information about you.

I mean the system recognises your number plate.. immediately it has access to your name and address. Then any purchases you make can be tagged to your reg and hey presto the next day or so you get a letter offering you 20% off your next purchase of Playboy....

This already happens if you sign up for one of the many 'reward cards', but if this could be done automatically, without your consent... that is heaven for a retailer!

[Streetcop]

I agree with you that ANPR for marketing use mustn't be allowed to happen and I for one don't think that will happen.

Let's not drift away from the original points of..'If you've got nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about' and then you're claim of ANPR infringing Civil Liberties...It doesn't it fights crime...no revenue from it by the motorist....and every motorist that I deal with has nothing but praise to say about the system...

If ANPR takes off the road uninsured vehicles and recovers stolen ones, it can't recieve higher praise in my eyes.

There really isn't anything that can be critisised about ANPR, and civil bloody liberties are way down the non-existant list..

Street

[IAnReid]

Streetcop said:

I agree with you that ANPR for marketing use mustn't be allowed to happen and I for one don't think that will happen. Let's not drift away from the original points of..'If you've got nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about' and then you're claim of ANPR infringing Civil Liberties...It doesn't it fights crime...no revenue from it by the motorist....and every motorist that I deal with has nothing but praise to say about the system... If ANPR takes off the road uninsured vehicles and recovers stolen ones, it can't recieve higher praise in my eyes. There really isn't anything that can be critisised about ANPR, and civil bloody liberties are way down the non-existant list.. Street

To sya you have a naive attitude woudl be the understatement of the year. If ANPR just continued to be used the way it is now then there might not be anything to worry about. Just as speed cameras were only ever going to be in accident black spots. We all know what happened. Apart from the mistaken pulls you've described; wife of banned driver being pulled etc That's an innocent person being harassed for no good reason. OK so I get searched and made to stand in a queue at X ray machines at airports and I'm innocent, so there are precedents. Then there are the cloners who will not get stopped, or the people who will get stopped because cloners have committed crimes. Well it's only one in five of the stops so what's the problem. We all have to give up a little freedom to catch the bad guys, the point is at what point have we given up so much freedom that it's better to allow a few crimes which could be stopped be committed. It's about a trade off, and where the line is drawn, and I think people on this forum by their nature will come down on the side of fewer controls. And most of us are very wary of giving this or any other government the benefit of the doubt, they have shown they are not to be trusted.

But leavign the philosophical deliberatiosn aside, let's ponder in what areas ANPR could be abused. Well suppose you are having an argument with the newly merged Inland Revenue/Customs & Excise, on the database for non-payment. You are having an argument with the CSA, on the database (that one could be a bit of a problem for some BiBs). This isn't as far fetched as you might think, magistrates can now take car licenses away for non-driving offences, we've had one high profile case already. They will be keen for this sort of linkage.

The other danger with all these new ANPR systems is that more people will get to see the database. Huge scope for privacy violations. The most famous case of this of course was the BiBs who used PNC to find Shell custoemrs who had won prizes, and took a cut of the prize (at least ten years ago now, but did happen).

But above all consider the scope for abuse, for example witness the suggestion that Bush might cancel the election if there is a threat of a terrorist attack. You object, on the database. They can lock you up without trial, but it's OK it's only the bad guys. Today you have nothing to hide, but tomorrow?

I'm sorry our cynicysm is borne out of bitter experience. The more power you give people the more abuses you will get.

[rustybin]

I do not have an argument with ANPR as a tool for use in the hands of skilled, trained, experienced and empowered police officers any more than I have an issue with video cameras in trafpol cars. I do have a problem with taking away that element of human intervention that can identify when either the system is failing to operate correctly/appropriately or is making incorrect decisions because it is being duped.

I believe people prefer to be dealt with by people. Face to face and with an opportunity to have their side of the story heard. People just don't trust machines. Much (but certainly not all) of the anger generated by Speed Cameras is down to the same issue. Further testing the general publics respect for the law and its enforcers by atomating it, without appropriate opportunitiy for human intervention, would surely not help in the long term?

[Streetcop]

I think the bottom line is this...

I cant see that all petrol stations will have ANPR cameras in a million years.....

If a small number of stations do ever have them installed and the civil liberties nuts who are only popping in to buy a bag of lentils don't like it, I suggest they buy petrol elsewhere!

Street

[rustybin]

Streetcop said:

If a small number of stations do ever have them installed and the civil liberties nuts who are only popping in to buy a bag of lentils don't like it, I suggest they buy petrol elsewhere! Street

At the same place the villains buy their petrol?

[Streetcop]

"You are judged by the company you keep"

[philthy]

Don't get me started on databases. Once told a customs officer to "four cough" at Southampton ferry terminal (stupid I know, I was young, very tired, and didn't need to be asked stupid questions after 48 hours without proper sleep). I then spent the next ten years talking to a lot of his colleagues at various ports/airports all over the country
Phil

[mad jock]

The only issue that I might have would be for some innocent to have bought a car, legitimately, from an ANPR registered scumbag, and can't fill the thing up until DVLA have processed the new rigistration document, and then informed the appropriate authorites that the new keeper is as pure as the driven snow.
As for "Big Brother" syndrome, just how much computer power will be needed to track every one of the 34 million cars in the UK alone, let alone any foreign visitors. (IT specialists can answer that). Who will pay for the satellites required to track us all?
I think we can rest easy that "Big Brother" is just a little squirt at the moment, and I think I'll be six feet under long before this need concern us.

[Streetcop]

In that case..you go into the shop area..hand over your cash and cashier will dish your petrol.

Anyway...it's all pipedreams at the moment...

If any moderators want to lock this thread, feel free....

Street