I was caught speeding
Discussion
Streetcop said:
In my force, they are operated by police officers, who although at present time are paid wages by SCP, would still be employed by the police if SCP wasn't there.
What exactly doesn't work?
Street
The fact they are manning a laser van catching people doing 43 in a 40 rather than doing things that would actually be in the public interest maybe?
(ps. when I say public I dont mean 3 or 4 NIMBY villagers who saw kevin doing 60 in their 30 one day in a stolen car and think that, like most things in life, a speed camera will sort it out...)
gh0st said:
In my force, they are operated by police officers, who although at present time are paid wages by SCP, would still be employed by the police if SCP wasn't there.
What exactly doesn't work?
Street
The fact they are manning a laser van catching people doing 43 in a 40 rather than doing things that would actually be in the public interest maybe?
(ps. when I say public I dont mean 3 or 4 NIMBY villagers who saw kevin doing 60 in their 30 one day in a stolen car and think that, like most things in life, a speed camera will sort it out...)
Hiya GhOst,
In my force area,you'd have to be doing 49mph in a 40mph zone to be caught on camera... (bear in mind your speed will be showing about 52/53mph)
Street
gh0st said:
In my force, they are operated by police officers, who although at present time are paid wages by SCP, would still be employed by the police if SCP wasn't there.
What exactly doesn't work?
Street
The fact they are manning a laser van catching people doing 43 in a 40 rather than doing things that would actually be in the public interest maybe?
(ps. when I say public I dont mean 3 or 4 NIMBY villagers who saw kevin doing 60 in their 30 one day in a stolen car and think that, like most things in life, a speed camera will sort it out...)
regardless of whether your force catches drivers at 43 or 53mph; and is paid for by the SCP; that doesn't detract from the fact that the employees aren't doing their best impression of Regan and Carter
What would happen if someone 'caught' speeding, by whatever means, gatso, truvelo, vascar, laser... was able to produce evidence from accurate gps based data logging equipment on their own car, that had been independantly checked and calibrated, that contradicted the evidence provided by the method of catching them? e.g. they get a NIP for 48 mph in a 30 from a gatso, and their gps data logging shows at that time/date/location they were travelling at 29.999mph. What would happen?
instructor said:
What would happen if someone 'caught' speeding, by whatever means, gatso, truvelo, vascar, laser... was able to produce evidence from accurate gps based data logging equipment on their own car, that had been independantly checked and calibrated, that contradicted the evidence provided by the method of catching them? e.g. they get a NIP for 48 mph in a 30 from a gatso, and their gps data logging shows at that time/date/location they were travelling at 29.999mph. What would happen?
Theyd fix the evidence to make sure of a nick. No one must be allowed to escape.....
instructor said:
Theyd fix the evidence to make sure of a nick. No one must be allowed to escape.....
How? If there is indisputable evidence recorded by equipment in the 'offending' vehicle... how can they fix it?
I was going to get an early night, but this is the basis of my next post so I'm going to have a coffee and then write it. It is a perfect example, albeit the worst I've ever seen, of the outrageous determination and lust for prosecution by the "authorities" that blinds and perverts justice.
BTW, where I'm going with this is:
10 years ago in Formula One racing, the FiA banned traction control, BUT, the Bennetton team (with M.Schumacher driving) were suspected as still having it...
Their engine management CPU's were impounded and sent away for tests. After months of in depth analysis by expert programmers, costing £millions, it was established that there was a 'dormant' program embedded deep in one of the system's chips, BUT, they didn't know what it did.
In desperation the FiA demanded that if they didn't see smoke coming off the Bennetton's tyres at the start of the next GP, they would ban them for the rest of the season! That was because the FiA knew Bennetton were using traction control, but they couldn't prove it, so they 'convicted' them anyway, with no evidence! Mmmm... good job magistrates don't have the powers of the FiA! LOL. Imagine that? We think you were speeding, we have no proof, but we are doing you anyway! Fortunately I don't think even our corrupt local magistrates can get away with that!
So, do you get my drift? A gps based datalogging system, independantly calibrated and certified, that has a hidden sub-program that doesn't
'correct' certain readings, and is dormant anyway, and can't be read should anyone decide to spend £millions to see if there is anything there in the first place!
Could there be a market for such a system?
>> Edited by instructor on Thursday 16th September 22:45
10 years ago in Formula One racing, the FiA banned traction control, BUT, the Bennetton team (with M.Schumacher driving) were suspected as still having it...
Their engine management CPU's were impounded and sent away for tests. After months of in depth analysis by expert programmers, costing £millions, it was established that there was a 'dormant' program embedded deep in one of the system's chips, BUT, they didn't know what it did.
In desperation the FiA demanded that if they didn't see smoke coming off the Bennetton's tyres at the start of the next GP, they would ban them for the rest of the season! That was because the FiA knew Bennetton were using traction control, but they couldn't prove it, so they 'convicted' them anyway, with no evidence! Mmmm... good job magistrates don't have the powers of the FiA! LOL. Imagine that? We think you were speeding, we have no proof, but we are doing you anyway! Fortunately I don't think even our corrupt local magistrates can get away with that!
So, do you get my drift? A gps based datalogging system, independantly calibrated and certified, that has a hidden sub-program that doesn't
'correct' certain readings, and is dormant anyway, and can't be read should anyone decide to spend £millions to see if there is anything there in the first place! Could there be a market for such a system?
>> Edited by instructor on Thursday 16th September 22:45
instructor said:
What would happen if someone 'caught' speeding, by whatever means, gatso, truvelo, vascar, laser... was able to produce evidence from accurate gps based data logging equipment on their own car, that had been independantly checked and calibrated, that contradicted the evidence provided by the method of catching them? e.g. they get a NIP for 48 mph in a 30 from a gatso, and their gps data logging shows at that time/date/location they were travelling at 29.999mph. What would happen?
Home Office "Type Approval" springs to mind. PLus the fact that it could be argued that the evidence produced could have been tampered with to show that result.
As you know, there are strict rules on use of speed enforcement equipment, including calibration, daily/weekly checks etc etc (although I'm not so naive as to suggest that mistakes (or worse) don't happen).
Isn't there an inbuilt error in GPS anyway?
Dibble said:
Home Office "Type Approval" springs to mind. PLus the fact that it could be argued that the evidence produced could have been tampered with to show that result.
Surely that only applies to equipment the police use to prosecute? i.e. Witnesses don't need type approval! That is to say, someone who is able to provide you with an aliby. In court, if two pieces of equipment, both independantly calibrated, show different results, don't they have to give the alleged offender the benefit of the doubt? Does guilt not have to be proved, BEYOND reasonable doubt?
Dibble said:
As you know, there are strict rules on use of speed enforcement equipment, including calibration, daily/weekly checks etc etc (although I'm not so naive as to suggest that mistakes (or worse) don't happen).
Isn't there an inbuilt error in GPS anyway?
GPS was just an example, alternatively a system can use a laser beam fired at the road and by measuring the deflection, calculate the speed.
My point is (and OK, I'm proposing a system that will cheat the law, perverting the course of justice - but prove it if you can!
) if there is undisputable evidence that a car was travelling slower (within the legal limit) than police/scamera partnerships equipment says it was doing; then a court surely can only throw the case out? They *can argue* that the evidence produced could have been tampered with to show that result, but, they cannot dismiss that evidence without absolute proof that it is unreliable, and if they are unable to prove that it's unreliable, they are 
ed! Whatever it takes to make it financially not viable for the 'authorities' to continue with these cash making lumps of metal at the roadside, must be done, persistently, until they get rid of them!
Instructor
Those were just points (to reply to your post) from the top of my head. I couldn't say how admissible evidence would be from some other sort of measuring/recording device.
My gut instinct is that the Court would tend to go with the "tried and tested", ie Home Office approved, or you could have anyone and everyone claiming to be an expert in all sorts of fields of measurement - I suspect they would have to prove theor expertise by way of qualifgication or relevant experience.
Those were just points (to reply to your post) from the top of my head. I couldn't say how admissible evidence would be from some other sort of measuring/recording device.
My gut instinct is that the Court would tend to go with the "tried and tested", ie Home Office approved, or you could have anyone and everyone claiming to be an expert in all sorts of fields of measurement - I suspect they would have to prove theor expertise by way of qualifgication or relevant experience.
Streetcop said:
What exactly doesn't work?Street
Radar and laser speed enforcement doesn't work. When British Columbia and IIRC another Canadian province ditched all forms of radar they admitted this - photoradar was described as a heavy-handed, arbitrary, big-government approach which had no road safety benefits but alienated the police from the public, and harmed witness cooperation as well as police recruitment. They also said that getting rid of it wasn't easy because it was propped up by a well-funded spin machine. Sound familiar?
>> Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 16th September 23:56
instructor said:
What would happen if someone 'caught' speeding, by whatever means, gatso, truvelo, vascar, laser... was able to produce evidence from accurate gps based data logging equipment on their own car, that had been independantly checked and calibrated, that contradicted the evidence provided by the method of catching them? e.g. they get a NIP for 48 mph in a 30 from a gatso, and their gps data logging shows at that time/date/location they were travelling at 29.999mph. What would happen?
Prosecution have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt (only on balance of probabilities in civil matters). This is why we have Magistrates, Judges and Juries to hear cases and High Court/Court of Criminal Appeal/House of Lords or more contentious matters.
So if one side argues x is x and the other that Y is Y then it is up to these people to decide.
As to expert evidence, depends on which side you are on for there is always a counter expert that will come forward for a fee of course to cast a doubt.
Recent Child Cot alleged Murders comes to mind??????
All in all its Britsih Justice and at least you get a chance to air your case.
DVD
instructor said:
My point is (and OK, I'm proposing a system that will cheat the law, perverting the course of justice - but prove it if you can!
Nice idea, but it aint likely to work is it? You're saying that your system WILL cheat numbers, so you're always looking safe, but in fact you're changing something
1) If it does exist, then a) smoeone will have created it and therefore be findoutable....and the program will exist in the car and will also be findable
2) You cant turn up to court with evidence created by you, and checked by your expert mate and have it used. Surprisingly enough every magistrate in the land would side with the approved equipment being used by the trained oplice officer!
evidence is only 'Evidence' in the right circumstances.....
N
Streetcop said:
Sean..
Why are they illegal? In my force, they are operated by police officers, who although at present time are paid wages by SCP, would still be employed by the police if SCP wasn't there. Consequently, there's no incentive to catch as many to keep their 'income or jobs'.
What exactly doesn't work?
Street
I do not believe it saves lives / makes roads safer
GPS was originally created with a deliberate margin of error to avoid people using it for things like guiding their home made cruise missile into the house of commons, but for whatever reason it changed and now they are as accurate as they can be made. Which is by all accounts, pretty farking accurate.
Nightmare said:
Nice idea, but it aint likely to work is it? You're saying that your system WILL cheat numbers, so you're always looking safe, but in fact you're changing something
1) If it does exist, then a) smoeone will have created it and therefore be findoutable....and the program will exist in the car and will also be findable
2) You cant turn up to court with evidence created by you, and checked by your expert mate and have it used. Surprisingly enough every magistrate in the land would side with the approved equipment being used by the trained oplice officer!
evidence is only 'Evidence' in the right circumstances.....
N
I disagree...
a) the program wouldn't be 'findable' and as in the Benetton case, even if it was, it's function couldn't be proven.
b) on the law, Magistrates *cannot* ingnore concrete evidence and side with the police, unless a serious doubt of the integrity of the evidence can be proved, they have to accept it.
Unless of course our Magistrates courts are corrupt, that would be scandalous and surely not the case???
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