Priorities Right?
Discussion
Cooperman said:
So, shoplifting (Thieving from shops!) is to be no longer a criminal offence and will be dealt with by way of an £80 FPN, according to one paper.
Speeding is £60 PFN plus 3 points towards loss of job, home and career.
I would, therefore, be at less risk to my lifestyle, job and career to be caught nicking a DVD player from Currys than for doing 35 mph at 02-00 hours in a 30 limit.
How much crazier are we going to allow our society to get?
I've no idea, but I rather hope the tide will turn before much longer. Meanwhile nothing surprises me anymore. We seem to be setting new standards of lunacy.
BTW Cooperman, with regard to your motorsport activities and the Silverstone circuit, do you know a chap called Peter Jackson who lives not so far from me?
Peter is about our age, mid 60s that is. While we're about it the same question may also be relevant to Instructor.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
No, I don't know Peter Jackson, although I have heard of him.
Most of my buddies are from the world of rallying, as that was, and still is at amateur level now, my sport. Now, how long before B'liar and his cronies try to ban rallying, long distance motor cycle trials and other forms of motorsport which use the public roads to get from one stage or test to another? Will that be after they ban angling (cruel to the fishes), gliding (danger to powered aircraft), parachuting for fun (danger to those doing it), etc, etc.
We should remember the words of the Rev. Niemoller in Germany during WW2. I don't remember them exactly, but he said them after his release from a concentration camp. Something like this:
They came for the communists, but I said nothing as I'm not a communist.
They came for the trade unionists, but I said nothing as I'm not in a trades union.
They came for the Jews, but I said nothing as I'm not a Jew.
They came for the Roman Catholics, but I said nothing as I'm not a Roman Catholic.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything.
Sorry if I've misquoted, I'm sure someone has the correct version, but this maybe gets the point across.
Sorry to be a bit deep at this time of the morning.
Peter
Most of my buddies are from the world of rallying, as that was, and still is at amateur level now, my sport. Now, how long before B'liar and his cronies try to ban rallying, long distance motor cycle trials and other forms of motorsport which use the public roads to get from one stage or test to another? Will that be after they ban angling (cruel to the fishes), gliding (danger to powered aircraft), parachuting for fun (danger to those doing it), etc, etc.
We should remember the words of the Rev. Niemoller in Germany during WW2. I don't remember them exactly, but he said them after his release from a concentration camp. Something like this:
They came for the communists, but I said nothing as I'm not a communist.
They came for the trade unionists, but I said nothing as I'm not in a trades union.
They came for the Jews, but I said nothing as I'm not a Jew.
They came for the Roman Catholics, but I said nothing as I'm not a Roman Catholic.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything.
Sorry if I've misquoted, I'm sure someone has the correct version, but this maybe gets the point across.
Sorry to be a bit deep at this time of the morning.
Peter
Many thanks for your reply Peter.
About a couple of years ago I had a letter published in the local press on the subject of driving, and Peter Jackson took the trouble to telephone me and express strong support for my views. We've met a few times since, and about a year ago we had a trip to Scarborough together in his Lotus 7 and that blew a few of the cobwebs away! He told me it produced about 160 bhp, which I'm guessing will result in something around 400 bhp per ton.
I guess Peter will now be about 67 and he's so incensed (not to say rebellious) about the way the motoring climate is going he's taken to flying as an alternative.
Apparently he used to do some race driving and mentioned Silverstone in particular which is why I wondered if he was known to yourself and Instructor.
I don't know the exact version of your quotation, but I do recognise it, I know how you feel, and I entirely agree with you. It seems to me there is something fundamentally wrong with the way things are going in this country, not just with regard to the motoring climate but more generally, and it would be nice to be able to give the politicians a good jolt and get a bit more common sense deployed.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
About a couple of years ago I had a letter published in the local press on the subject of driving, and Peter Jackson took the trouble to telephone me and express strong support for my views. We've met a few times since, and about a year ago we had a trip to Scarborough together in his Lotus 7 and that blew a few of the cobwebs away! He told me it produced about 160 bhp, which I'm guessing will result in something around 400 bhp per ton.
I guess Peter will now be about 67 and he's so incensed (not to say rebellious) about the way the motoring climate is going he's taken to flying as an alternative.
Apparently he used to do some race driving and mentioned Silverstone in particular which is why I wondered if he was known to yourself and Instructor.
I don't know the exact version of your quotation, but I do recognise it, I know how you feel, and I entirely agree with you. It seems to me there is something fundamentally wrong with the way things are going in this country, not just with regard to the motoring climate but more generally, and it would be nice to be able to give the politicians a good jolt and get a bit more common sense deployed.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
The quote was...
'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'
Pastor Martin Niemöller
Words that seem to get more poignant by the day...
'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'
Pastor Martin Niemöller
Words that seem to get more poignant by the day...
[quote=BlackStuff]The quote was...
'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'
Pastor Martin Niemöller
Words that seem to get more poignant by the day...
Thanks for that, BlackStuff. Might have guessed you would have the full and correct version (did you have to look it up?).
It is getting serious though. The erosion of our democracy by the concentration on spiteful, politically motivated and useless laws, whilst more serious crimes and offences are dealt with ever more leniently is particularly worrying. The unwillingness or inability of the average police officer to actually see this is also of some concern, controlled as they are by Chief Constables who have their own pseudo-political agendas.
With the increasing use of technology to control our lives in so many different ways together with a 'control obsessed' government are we heading for, to quote Winston, 'a new dark age made more protracted by the lights of perverted science' in which our democratic rights are lost, but oh so gradually, until we are just a nation of brain dead TV-watchers.
Civil disobediance will undoubtedly increase. The huntsmen are not going to give it up, so how will this be enforced? Are the pensioners rebelling against unfair rises in their rates and refusing to pay petty offenders or freedom fighters? Are Captain Gatso and his associates burning down Gatsos just criminal damagers or fighters for justice and freedom?
Mr. Blair and cronies, to quote Winston again, 'you are sowing the wind and shall reap the whirlwind'.
The British Nazi (sorry, National) Party is gaining ground and this is frightening.
What a good morning for quotes! Got any more, Blackstuff and others.
Have I got it all completely wrong, I mean the ramblers now have the rights to trample over the crops, as I understand it?
'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'
Pastor Martin Niemöller
Words that seem to get more poignant by the day...
Thanks for that, BlackStuff. Might have guessed you would have the full and correct version (did you have to look it up?).
It is getting serious though. The erosion of our democracy by the concentration on spiteful, politically motivated and useless laws, whilst more serious crimes and offences are dealt with ever more leniently is particularly worrying. The unwillingness or inability of the average police officer to actually see this is also of some concern, controlled as they are by Chief Constables who have their own pseudo-political agendas.
With the increasing use of technology to control our lives in so many different ways together with a 'control obsessed' government are we heading for, to quote Winston, 'a new dark age made more protracted by the lights of perverted science' in which our democratic rights are lost, but oh so gradually, until we are just a nation of brain dead TV-watchers.
Civil disobediance will undoubtedly increase. The huntsmen are not going to give it up, so how will this be enforced? Are the pensioners rebelling against unfair rises in their rates and refusing to pay petty offenders or freedom fighters? Are Captain Gatso and his associates burning down Gatsos just criminal damagers or fighters for justice and freedom?
Mr. Blair and cronies, to quote Winston again, 'you are sowing the wind and shall reap the whirlwind'.
The British Nazi (sorry, National) Party is gaining ground and this is frightening.
What a good morning for quotes! Got any more, Blackstuff and others.
Have I got it all completely wrong, I mean the ramblers now have the rights to trample over the crops, as I understand it?
Cooperman said:
Thanks for that, BlackStuff. Might have guessed you would have the full and correct version (did you have to look it up?).
Yes and No!
I looked it up a couple of weeks ago to help out some friends of mine who are fighting a losing battle to stop water ski-ing from being banned on Windermere. A perfect example of the new Labour equation:
Minority Group + Political Correctness + Interfering Quango = unwanted undemocratic ban
The true reasons are that a small selfish intolerant group want the Lake District all to themselves, and meanwhile the management of it has been foolishly placed in the hands of an empire-building Quango who will support any half baked NIMBY scheme that increases their power and control.
I've never water ski-ied, but like most people I can't see any logical reason for a ban (nor indeed could the public enquiry that was held). I think that brings us round to the other quote by Voltaire....
Cooperman said:
With the increasing use of technology to control our lives in so many different ways together with a 'control obsessed' government are we heading for, to quote Winston, 'a new dark age made more protracted by the lights of perverted science'
In the light of later events, you do begin to wonder just what secrets he knew about the Nazis when he made that speech in 1940, or was it just intuitive prescience?
And somehow I don't think our current political climate wholly encapsulates the imagery of the "sunlit uplands" towards which he urged everyone to fight for, in that same great speech...
Cooperman said:
It is getting serious though. The erosion of our democracy by the concentration on spiteful, politically motivated and useless laws, whilst more serious crimes and offences are dealt with ever more leniently is particularly worrying. The unwillingness or inability of the average police officer to actually see this is also of some concern, controlled as they are by Chief Constables who have their own pseudo-political agendas.
With the increasing use of technology to control our lives in so many different ways together with a 'control obsessed' government are we heading for, to quote Winston, 'a new dark age made more protracted by the lights of perverted science' in which our democratic rights are lost, but oh so gradually, until we are just a nation of brain dead TV-watchers.
Civil disobediance will undoubtedly increase. The huntsmen are not going to give it up, so how will this be enforced? Are the pensioners rebelling against unfair rises in their rates and refusing to pay petty offenders or freedom fighters? Are Captain Gatso and his associates burning down Gatsos just criminal damagers or fighters for justice and freedom?
Mr. Blair and cronies, to quote Winston again, 'you are sowing the wind and shall reap the whirlwind'.
The British Nazi (sorry, National) Party is gaining ground and this is frightening.
Cooperman.
You are indeed a kindred spirit and a man of total common sense. I often wonder what we would see if we built a time machine and travelled into the future. More technology, less person to person communication; monitoring of whereabouts by electronic means; the mind boggles. Kind of glad I wont be around to see it.
When you look at the 1940's history and compare the sort of leaders we had then (Lord Halifax excepted) and then look at the current shower it just shows why we are in some disarray.
It's not just speed cameras, it's the whole of society which is sliding. The obsession of the piticians with control by 'spin' and lies, the acceptance of declining family values, etc, etc.
I was thinking about single-parent families. I started school in January 1946 and a single parent family then was one in which the father had been killed in WW2. How different from now.
If our politicians don't 'get a grip' on reality soon the BNP will realy start to score, then who knows where that will lead us all.
It's not just speed cameras, it's the whole of society which is sliding. The obsession of the piticians with control by 'spin' and lies, the acceptance of declining family values, etc, etc.
I was thinking about single-parent families. I started school in January 1946 and a single parent family then was one in which the father had been killed in WW2. How different from now.
If our politicians don't 'get a grip' on reality soon the BNP will realy start to score, then who knows where that will lead us all.
rsvmille said:
Gentlemen I have just read this thread and I am now depressed. What a state we live in. It realy is opressive.
mr Aprilia man rsvmille.
Dont get depressed about this. It is just an observation by someone who is old enough to have seen what happened in the past and comparing it with the present.
What sort of country is it, when the Lord Chief Justice wants to reduce the number in prison, by letting guilty pleaders off more lightly.
Think of the possibilities.
"Man accused of multiple murder pleads guilty and receives sentence of 5 years." Personally, given time, I reckon that more and more people will take the law into their own hands.
IOLAIRE said:
If you think that a change of Government is going to make the slightest difference to even our smallest problems then you are seriously deluded.
Modern political history has proven this over and over.
It has nothing to do with socialist or conservative principles. The only way to change things is to put pressure on the Government and the system via a powerful, but non-political organisation, that is educated in it's driving motifs and has no need to get elected or do anything other than represent the true will and best interests of the people. An intellectual force that exists as a conduit between the people and Government.
What are you on about??? Your initial post caught my interest but now it just seams like a load of hot air and you being slightly disgruntled about the injustices in our judicial system (you certainly are not the only one).
The way I see it is that you are severly deluded if you beleive a couple of posts on a forum is going to change anything - look at recent "Modern political history":
The petrol protests are the single biggest anti-governement movement since the miners strike, and what did they acheive - absoultely f
k all. The anti-war protests had the weight of over 100,000 and failed to change a thing
The pro-hunt lot are also failing
So where will your "insurrection" get you??? The way stats are manipulated the "true will and best interest of the people" requires more that a handful of posts on pistonheads
jesusbuiltmycar said:
What are you on about??? Your initial post caught my interest but now it just seams like a load of hot air
Gotta be honest IOLAIRE and say that your posts are so long I tend to lose interest myself.
jesusbuiltmycar said:
and you being slightly disgruntled about the injustices in our judicial system (you certainly are not the only one).
The way I see it is that you are severly deluded if you beleive a couple of posts on a forum is going to change anything - look at recent "Modern political history":
The petrol protests are the single biggest anti-governement movement since the miners strike, and what did they acheive - absoultely f
The anti-war protests had the weight of over 100,000 and failed to change a thing
The pro-hunt lot are also failing
So where will your "insurrection" get you??? The way stats are manipulated the "true will and best interest of the people" requires more that a handful of posts on pistonheads
Have to say I agree.
The ONLY policy that has been overturned in recent years is the Poll tax. That was only because it was a vote and gov income loser.
IOLAIRE.
All of PH'ers are pissed off with the current policies and the way this country is going. Here are a few facts.
1.We elect a cabinet to run country. They are the law and the Police have to enforce the laws, even when they dont agree with them.
2.The law usually always wins because they have the support of the Police.
3.I hate the way this country is going and I've seen a few changes in my 43 years, but WTF are you suggesting? Short of voting in a different gov. or a revolution, exactly what are you suggesting that is going to "change this country" and which is legal. I think we would all like to know. And yes I have read all your posts thoroughly, and yes I do know where you are coming from.
IOLAIRE said:
If you think that a change of Government is going to make the slightest difference to even our smallest problems then you are seriously deluded.
Modern political history has proven this over and over.
It has nothing to do with socialist or conservative principles. The only way to change things is to put pressure on the Government and the system via a powerful, but non-political organisation, that is educated in it's driving motifs and has no need to get elected or do anything other than represent the true will and best interests of the people. An intellectual force that exists as a conduit between the people and Government.
I don't necessarily agree with any of IOLAIRE's previous posts (or disagree with them, for that matter), but this post strikes a chord.
Dibble said:
If you think that a change of Government is going to make the slightest difference to even our smallest problems then you are seriously deluded.
Modern political history has proven this over and over.
It has nothing to do with socialist or conservative principles. The only way to change things is to put pressure on the Government and the system via a powerful, but non-political organisation, that is educated in it's driving motifs and has no need to get elected or do anything other than represent the true will and best interests of the people. An intellectual force that exists as a conduit between the people and Government.
I don't necessarily agree with any of IOLAIRE's previous posts (or disagree with them, for that matter), but this post strikes a chord.
Thank you Dibble;
and for all you whingeing, apathetic wimps that go on about my long posts or think I am all a load of hot air; not ONE of you has suggested any alternative other than putting up with the status quo because you feel you are helpless.
Let me assure you right now, I am most definitely NOT helpless. But I do not exist to provide you with an instant, overnight solution to your problems with the Government and other agencies. Oh great guys, IOLAIRE says we just do this and that and the Government's on its knees and we can all do 120 up the M6! Sorry, it's not that simple.
I am NOT going to reveal what I propose at this time because I have to be certain that it's properly and thoroughly founded, that is what I have been working towards.
I will tell you, yet again, that Paul Smith and I are meeting at the weekend and I will be discussing what I propose with him. I will also tell you that it involves the setting up of an organisation which of course, I will expect you all to join, and our intitial "target" will be the Fixed Penalty system, that is the Achilles Heel of the whole thing, that is where we can exert and gain substantial control.
Stop whingeing and put on your thinking, creative heads.
Dibble said:
If you think that a change of Government is going to make the slightest difference to even our smallest problems then you are seriously deluded.
Modern political history has proven this over and over.
It has nothing to do with socialist or conservative principles. The only way to change things is to put pressure on the Government and the system via a powerful, but non-political organisation, that is educated in it's driving motifs and has no need to get elected or do anything other than represent the true will and best interests of the people. An intellectual force that exists as a conduit between the people and Government.
I don't necessarily agree with any of IOLAIRE's previous posts (or disagree with them, for that matter), but this post strikes a chord.
Glad Dibble said that, because I too thought Iolaire was talking sense there. Even if we didn't quite see Insurrection part 3 from the same perspective.
sorry to be so OT but....
.....how does someone who, for whatever reasons, is caught nicking going to pay an £80 fine or a fine what so ever.
If they had £80 to pay a fine with, they may not be nicking in the first place.
Unless of course the fine and payment of said fine depends on the ability to pay.
So those caught nicking that cant afford to pay the fine, dont pay the fine or pay the fine at say £1 per week.
.....how does someone who, for whatever reasons, is caught nicking going to pay an £80 fine or a fine what so ever.
If they had £80 to pay a fine with, they may not be nicking in the first place.
Unless of course the fine and payment of said fine depends on the ability to pay.
So those caught nicking that cant afford to pay the fine, dont pay the fine or pay the fine at say £1 per week.
BlackStuff said:
Cooperman said:
Thanks for that, BlackStuff. Might have guessed you would have the full and correct version (did you have to look it up?).
Yes and No!
I looked it up a couple of weeks ago to help out some friends of mine who are fighting a losing battle to stop water ski-ing from being banned on Windermere. A perfect example of the new Labour equation:
Minority Group + Political Correctness + Interfering Quango = unwanted undemocratic ban
The true reasons are that a small selfish intolerant group want the Lake District all to themselves, and meanwhile the management of it has been foolishly placed in the hands of an empire-building Quango who will support any half baked NIMBY scheme that increases their power and control.
I've never water ski-ied, but like most people I can't see any logical reason for a ban (nor indeed could the public enquiry that was held). I think that brings us round to the other quote by Voltaire....
I'll bow to greater knowledge but I always understood that the ban on high speed motorboats and hence waterskiing was initiated because of a few individuals behaving in a manner that any person with half a brain cell could see was dangerous and anti social.
And in a typically New Labour way they go totally over the top because of a minority whose attitude is "I'll behave how I want and let nobody be the judge."
One can apply that sad scenario to many things, eg planned ban on green laning. Yes there are some individuals who offroad in a manner and in places which are uncaring of others and the environment. Is it really necessary to deal with it in the over the top way intended? Of course not, control freaks who are incompetent to boot.
Likewise the dealings with motorists. Yes there are some who drive like total knobs, but why should the rest of us suffer instead of targeting the real pee takers?
Mind you, re the hunting ban. As I understand it, HRH Prince Charles has said he intends to continue hunting. What will the constitutional implication be, if any, if he continues hunting when he is Monarch? Just wondered.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 21st September 15:01
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