Unsafe evidence of speeding????

[graham]

>>>Mmm, I wonder what a traffic cop's response << how about dangerous driving, reckless driving? or even undue care and attention for not noticing the jam sanwitch next to you !! Edited by graham on Monday 4th June 16:49

[dse444]

Well I was once pulled up for a chat after accelerating from a couple of roundabouts to the dual-carriageway 70 limit. I knew he was there but it was sunny and I wanted to hear the sound of the engine. Anyway the police motorcyclist said I was doing 80. I'd have had more respect if he'd said I shouldn't have been accelerating so fast or something, not guessing the speed he thought I was doing.

[john robson]

As long as it is used in a safe and responsible manner I have not got a problem with a car using its acelleration capabilities, even if it is faster than the Police car. I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here, but the comment from gasblaster about the cop breaking the limit to catch up? we will often break the limit to catch up to a car just to take a look or make our prescence felt its part of the job, our visual prescence on the road is a deterent in itself, its amazing how peoples driving improves when a marked car is around (sorry a bit condescending I know but!!!!)

[Nightmare]

John...have noticed that people on the motorway tend to learn what their indicators are for when there's a 'marked' about - always amuses me, cos I guess its just too much effort normally police could definitely do you for any of the things mentioned by Graham...never try and be a smart a2se in front of cops, they have the power! John...is it actually legal for the Police to break the limit without the blues and twos on? I thought it wasnt? cheers Night

[john robson]

Night, Oficially Police have an exemption to certain parts of the Road Traffic Act, speed being one of them. This exemption applies for instance when going to an urgent job etc it also applies for traning purposes. When we are being trained it is done in unmarked cars (except for a small sticker on the rear). When we are going to jobs our particular force policy is to use everything ie blue's & two's, but it is force policy not the law to do so. Obviously if we stuffed the car without them on it would not look to good for the officer concerned. Occasionally we also need to 'catch up' to someone without being too obvious.

[jimbo]

On the point of being a smart arse with the police - If a plod is being totally condascending and talking to you like a 4 year old why shouldn't you get a little stroppy back ?. If you have done something extremely stupid then fair enough - take your bollocking, but if you have been pulled for something minor, and he is being an arse about it odds are he is going to give you a ticket anyway, so at least get a couple of digs in !!!. Doesn't apply to all plod, just the ones who seem to think that they are my Dad. Jim

[Stitched Up]

I'd just like to thank you guys for your support over this. Your posts have proved helpful almost without exeption. Just over a week has passed since the event and I have (almost) calmed down. I am no longer inclined to lead a lynch mob to the local police station or petrol bomb the traffic police pound in the dead of night. I'm even prepared to accept that the officers made a genuine mistake. Not that my attitude has anything to do with keeping the points off my clean licence. Through a network of friends I have found my way to somebody who knows the Head of Traffic Intelligence for the County Force (who was it that said the phrase 'Military Intelligence' was a contradiction in terms? Sorry, couldn't resist..). The hope is that some some subtle digging may reveal whether or not the distance on the ticket corresponds with what I saw in the car. If so, a suggestion may be made in appropriate ears that the ticket should 'just go away'. At the very least I'll know whether or not to go and see a brief. In response to macca's question (have you got a nice car?) I suppose it is all relative. I know most of you guys have TVR's or Lotuses (Loti ?? ) and I consider that to be VERY nice. I've also noticed that in other sections of the forum many have expressed dim views on Euro blobs. It is with some trepidation that I tell you I own a Peugeot 306 GTi-6. If by 'nice' you mean quick then it is quick enough for me. I've had it off the 140mph clock at Bruntingthorpe from a rolling start and it has been clocked with Datron equipment at 127mph at Alconbury airfield on a photo shoot. That was from a standing start and the runway is shorter than Bruntingthorpe; the test driver ran out of space before he could put it in sixth gear so there was plenty left. And before PetrolTed asks I have NOT stuck the entire contents of a Richbrook and Ripspeed catalogue all over it nor tinted the windows nor spent Saturday night doing burnouts at Sainsbury's in front of baseball-hat wearing, spotty, Nova drivers...

[Nightmare]

mate has a GTi-6 which he uses as his everyday car...and its bloody GREAT in my opinion. dull europboxes suck...on the whole Pugs dont - cos they know how to make them drive. The GTi-6 handles superbly, grip is excellent (though not naerly as limitless as my mate has thought it was a couple of 'oops trees' times ) and its bloody fast. Along with An Audi S3 its certainly the only 'normal' car I would buy Jimbo....know what you mean...but in the end, not being sarcy gives you lesschance of getting a ticket if they're 'considering' it. And if you et one who is a complete to**er remember..he may have had a day of pulling irritating smart arse little gits who have just given him abuse all day....meeting someon nice and contrite could be a welcome change! (hey, I have NO pride *grin*) Night

[ca2]

john robson, I've read this thread with interest. I wonder if you could clear up a couple of things for me. You've stated that you don't write your evidence on the drivers copy of the FPN. Why is this? Is the outcome of this that the driver has to make an on the spot judgement whether to accept the FPN? Before (s)he has had the opportunity to gain legal advice and possible expert opinion on the circumstances regarding the alleged offence? You've stated that you have received verbal from people who have executed a drag race and you've pulled thewm for it. Could it be that one persons drag face is just another persons spirited reaction to a green light? C

[john robson]

ca2, The FPN has not got the space for that type of info. When I stop a person for speed as a general rule I show them the device used, explain briefly how it is used/works and show the the speed if it is a device which retains that info. If for example the speed check was done via a calibrated speedo, all you have is the coppers word for it anyway. It is just a case of asking a few questions at the time, if you really want to you can write it down yourself. Good point it could be, but to most of the 'ordinary' public it looks a bit irresponsible, so they usually get spoken to ( did it myself as a youth got the bollocking, but I do try to be a bit less condescending than the cop who spoke to me)

[Horse]

Mini Gatsoes. Box on tripod at side of road. How come they don't require the white markings on the road like the big grey boxes do? Do they need any special setting up? I guess these are questions for our residient expert Mr. Robson. Rich

[john robson]

The white lines on the side of the road are secondary check markings ie 'coroboration of the evidence from the gatso, coroboration is needed in all speed offences. With the 'portable' gatso there will be an officer with it, so he provides the coroboration. Eg saw car, formed opinion it was exceeding speed limit, gatso flashed, recorded speed at ...mph which was consistent with my observation.

[nubbin]

Just as an aside, David Templeman-Adams, the explorer wallah, was on R5Live last week, and when asked, said if he was PM, his first task would be to get rid of all speed cameras etc. He constantly hovers between 9-12 points on his licence. Still, he's a born chancer....

[Marv]

I have had a similar case to stichedup.. I recently got pulled by a cop in a marked to be told i had done 78 for an average of 2 tenths of a mile in a 50 zone. This was done using Vascar. The cop was on his own in the vehicle. I was on a slip road from a motorway before joining the dual carridgeway and entering the 50. After a lot of research into the average speed method i have found numerous points that range from opportunitys to exagerate the given speed to almost precise selection of any desired speed. All this being subject to how the cop uses the equipment. Is his evidence alone and his "word" that he has used the equipment properly acceptable. I find it hard that if using a mobile fone while driving is an offence that the officer can operate a vascar, look at my position on the road, estimate markers and drive his car at increased speed at night and be 100% accurate. Can this evidence be acceptable to a conviction in the court??

[mel]

Yep strangly enough I've seen a vascar reading on a bike (wheezy old BMW k thing) effectively "dialed in" to suit what he fealt i had been doing !!! I was speeding so took it on the chin as he had exactly 100mph on the display ( I doubt his old nail could have done that anyway with all the old junk hanging off it) I know he hadn't got me fair and square as I saw him when he was miles behind me and had no chance to take referance points etc... But as said earlier if you did it take it. If not fight it. Only you truely know.. Opening line wasn't good though in my case. Plod "Are you a complete arsehole ?" response "why are you recruiting ?" hmmm lead fart that one and not recommended Note for JR. you do sound fair and I have no doubt your judgement is. However personal experience and probable that of a lot of others on these pages is that "Traffic" does tend to attract a percentage of "jack boot types" on power trips well lets re phrase that to: The Police do tend to attract a percentage of these types. Before this causes offence please remember I said a percentage, JR does a sterling job and probable does it because he cares, his very presence here shows a desire to "educate and advise" and I'd be the last to knock him (I might need his help some day) but every job has them and innocent men have been hung !!!!! I think that stiched up might have just met a couple of them. If it was a mistake it strikes me as a fundemental one that certainly shouldn't have been made by a "tutor" !!

[john robson]

VASCAR is a simple time/disance recorder. The time recorder is activated by the officer when the target vehicle passes a fixed reference point, the distance recorder is linked to the cars speedo and is activated by the officer when the Police vehicle passes the same reference point. The time recorder is then stopped at a second reference point (which must be .125 of a mile after the first this is the minimum and the device will abort the test if it is less) the distance recorder is also stopped at the same point. The device then device then uses the simple formula time over distance = speed and up pops a reading. A monkey could do it. Except that it is a 2 day course where you are taught that plus several other modes of use you then have to do 30hrs of practice with the device (this is done durring your normal patrol duties and possibly accounts for a few of the times when people are let off with advice, I know it did with me when I was practicing, I did get a few good drink drivers out of it though) after that there is a further day course when you are tested on your use/acuracy and this has to be + or - 2% on all the tests mine was .5. But like you point out it is down to the operator. But why should a police officer want to pick on someone who is sticking to the speed limit and 'stich' him up with a speeding ticket, we are not on a bonus or percentace for the number of tickets. Certainly myself and the colleagues I work with have proffesional standards and if there is any doubt with the check you wait for the next one. So in reply , yes I am 100% confident that anyone done by myself has been over the limit and that the speed check was acurate

[john robson]

P.s just in response to the bit about the speed of the cop bike it does not matter how fast he goes the distance check can be done in theory at 5mph. or if he wanted to the distance can be pre-fed in and you just wait there checking the times between the two points Edited by john robson on Monday 9th July 12:25

[Marv]

JR, is there a ACPO or other maximum recommended distance that the police car can be behind the target vehicle. Eg if the cop was 500 mtrs behind the target then i guess he would find it difficult to estimate the cars actual position due to parallax error? cheers

[mel]

As long as the distance was constant so would be the error so it wouldn't matter, anyway isn't it about prediction and not reaction when pressing the buttons, no fairness is probable a better point. JR as for why would they? There are thousands of reasons: boredom, jealousy, race, sex, or even the urban myth of playing snooker who knows but some do it.

[bosshog]

quote:..... But why should a police officer want to pick on someone who is sticking to the speed limit and 'stich' him up with a speeding ticket, we are not on a bonus or percentace for the number of tickets.....

not yet, but it'll come at this rate....