M25 variable speed limits - when does the reduced speed end?
Discussion
jamei303 said:
It's no different from any other road where there is a signed speed limit and repeaters. Repeaters should be at maximum set distances depending on the limit, these can found in the Traffic Signs Manual but are in the order of hundreds of meters.
This.. A motorway is NSL by default unless there is correct signage for less. If there are no repeaters at the correct distance, then it is NSL.
ghe13rte said:
You are absolutely right. They do routinely not illuminate the signs, they don’t have to because what I said above is true.
If the speed limit doesn’t need to be changed before the next Gantry or gantries they are routinely not illuminated...the speed limit remains what it was at the last illuminated sign until you reach an NSL sign.
Obvious when you think about it...give it a try.
Government guidance seems quite clear, and at odds with what you're claiming.If the speed limit doesn’t need to be changed before the next Gantry or gantries they are routinely not illuminated...the speed limit remains what it was at the last illuminated sign until you reach an NSL sign.
Obvious when you think about it...give it a try.
Government Guidance said:
Smart motorway
If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.
and from the leaflet "We use 60, 50 and 40mph limits on all types of smart motorways. When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place ..."If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.
If there is no speed shown in the gantry then it’s nsl.
Anyone saying otherwise is talking tosh.
I drive a hell of a lot of miles a week through these things and I’ve never had a problem with that approach.
If it was different to that then we would be seeing outraged motorists on the tv and in newspapers by now.
Until I see a dashcam warrior with evidence that he got a ticket from a gantry not displaying a speed then it’s fake news.
Anyone saying otherwise is talking tosh.
I drive a hell of a lot of miles a week through these things and I’ve never had a problem with that approach.
If it was different to that then we would be seeing outraged motorists on the tv and in newspapers by now.
Until I see a dashcam warrior with evidence that he got a ticket from a gantry not displaying a speed then it’s fake news.
I had the misfortune of spending quite a bit of the weekend on the M25 and M1 Smart Motorway sections.
On the M1 the gantries were pretty consistent in showing an NSL sign at the end of the reduced speed sections and on the M25 between the M1 and A12 were pretty consistent in being blank at the end of the reduced speed section.
For drivers that passed their test before smart motorways and don't keep up to date with the changes, sticking to the speed shown on the last sign is what they were taught to do.
The simple solution is for the motorway operators to put up an NSL sign consistently at the end of the restriction.
On the M1 the gantries were pretty consistent in showing an NSL sign at the end of the reduced speed sections and on the M25 between the M1 and A12 were pretty consistent in being blank at the end of the reduced speed section.
For drivers that passed their test before smart motorways and don't keep up to date with the changes, sticking to the speed shown on the last sign is what they were taught to do.
The simple solution is for the motorway operators to put up an NSL sign consistently at the end of the restriction.
speedking31 said:
ghe13rte said:
You are absolutely right. They do routinely not illuminate the signs, they don’t have to because what I said above is true.
If the speed limit doesn’t need to be changed before the next Gantry or gantries they are routinely not illuminated...the speed limit remains what it was at the last illuminated sign until you reach an NSL sign.
Obvious when you think about it...give it a try.
Government guidance seems quite clear, and at odds with what you're claiming.If the speed limit doesn’t need to be changed before the next Gantry or gantries they are routinely not illuminated...the speed limit remains what it was at the last illuminated sign until you reach an NSL sign.
Obvious when you think about it...give it a try.
Government Guidance said:
Smart motorway
If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.
and from the leaflet "We use 60, 50 and 40mph limits on all types of smart motorways. When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place ..."If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.
Bert
ghe13rte said:
You are absolutely right. They do routinely not illuminate the signs, they don’t have to because what I said above is true.
If the speed limit doesn’t need to be changed before the next Gantry or gantries they are routinely not illuminated...the speed limit remains what it was at the last illuminated sign until you reach an NSL sign.
Obvious when you think about it...give it a try.
Sorry but that's totally incorrect and obviously so if you think about it. I would literally be driving 70 or 80 miles at 40mph on nearly empty motorways every day if that was the case.If the speed limit doesn’t need to be changed before the next Gantry or gantries they are routinely not illuminated...the speed limit remains what it was at the last illuminated sign until you reach an NSL sign.
Obvious when you think about it...give it a try.
Kraken said:
Sorry but that's totally incorrect and obviously so if you think about it. I would literally be driving 70 or 80 miles at 40mph on nearly empty motorways every day if that was the case.
I agree - if one stuck to say 50MPH at, say, 3 unlit gantries after a variable limit sign... and the traffic was relatively OK.... you would be causing a bit of an obstruction and annoying many lorry drivers too...I would be surprised if the OP got a ticket for travelling past an unlit set of signs at the NSL.
Kraken said:
ghe13rte said:
You are absolutely right. They do routinely not illuminate the signs, they don’t have to because what I said above is true.
If the speed limit doesn’t need to be changed before the next Gantry or gantries they are routinely not illuminated...the speed limit remains what it was at the last illuminated sign until you reach an NSL sign.
Obvious when you think about it...give it a try.
Sorry but that's totally incorrect and obviously so if you think about it. I would literally be driving 70 or 80 miles at 40mph on nearly empty motorways every day if that was the case.If the speed limit doesn’t need to be changed before the next Gantry or gantries they are routinely not illuminated...the speed limit remains what it was at the last illuminated sign until you reach an NSL sign.
Obvious when you think about it...give it a try.
At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends” and has a fekkin great NSL sign.
The unlit AMI is not an NSL sign.
ghe13rte said:
This wishful thinking is getting tedious.
At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends” and has a fekkin great NSL sign.
The unlit AMI is not an NSL sign.
But we've been here before. You make these definitive statements with lots of huffing and eye-raising but can never show us any materials to back it up. You may well be right but when there is no backup info and as we have seen, published info that might contradict it, what do you expect?At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends” and has a fekkin great NSL sign.
The unlit AMI is not an NSL sign.
Bert
BertBert said:
ghe13rte said:
This wishful thinking is getting tedious.
At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends” and has a fekkin great NSL sign.
The unlit AMI is not an NSL sign.
But we've been here before. You make these definitive statements with lots of huffing and eye-raising but can never show us any materials to back it up. You may well be right but when there is no backup info and as we have seen, published info that might contradict it, what do you expect?At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends” and has a fekkin great NSL sign.
The unlit AMI is not an NSL sign.
Bert
Where is the material that says a blank AMI is a sign? It's a square of black, that isn't a sign. Show the pattern for a black square in TSRGD then we can discuss it further. NSL is pattern 671. I haven't found a pattern that has a black rectangle...have you?
ghe13rte said:
There is no published info that contradicts it.
Where is the material that says a blank AMI is a sign? It's a square of black, that isn't a sign. Show the pattern for a black square in TSRGD then we can discuss it further. NSL is pattern 671. I haven't found a pattern that has a black rectangle...have you?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar...Where is the material that says a blank AMI is a sign? It's a square of black, that isn't a sign. Show the pattern for a black square in TSRGD then we can discuss it further. NSL is pattern 671. I haven't found a pattern that has a black rectangle...have you?
In the "Speed limits" section, 3rd paragraph:
If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.
Taozzz said:
ghe13rte said:
There is no published info that contradicts it.
Where is the material that says a blank AMI is a sign? It's a square of black, that isn't a sign. Show the pattern for a black square in TSRGD then we can discuss it further. NSL is pattern 671. I haven't found a pattern that has a black rectangle...have you?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar...Where is the material that says a blank AMI is a sign? It's a square of black, that isn't a sign. Show the pattern for a black square in TSRGD then we can discuss it further. NSL is pattern 671. I haven't found a pattern that has a black rectangle...have you?
In the "Speed limits" section, 3rd paragraph:
If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.
Your interpretation is wrong.
ghe13rte said:
But when you pass a sign with a speed limit displayed that speed limit applies until you pass another speed limit sign. A blank unlit motorway indicator is not a speed limit sign so the last one that had a sign illuminated stays in force until you pass another illuminated sign or the fixed sign at the end of the variable speed limit zone.
Your interpretation is wrong.
As several people have now pointed out, it is not uncommon for there to be:Your interpretation is wrong.
- no NSL sign
- blank matrix boards
- traffic entering from junctions who have not been past a 40, 50 or 60 speed limit sign when joining the motorway
However much you huff and puff, variable speed limits have not in reality been implemented the way you have described.
apotts said:
What if there's a different speed limit over the 3 lanes?
As in: 20 40 40
Or does that "never happen"?
I asked this question to Highways and got this response:As in: 20 40 40
Or does that "never happen"?
I’ve asked our technology team your questions and their answer is below:
The safe speed to travel is within the speed limit shown in the particular lane. Differential speed limits can apply between slip road lanes and main carriageway.
If on a multi-lane carriageway one of the AMI signals shows blank then I believe NSL applies legally, though it would be safer to drive within the speed limit shown for the other lanes if lower, on the basis that the blank AMI signal was faulty.
There are built-in safeguards which prevent the speed enforcement camera from activating if there is a critical fault with the AMI signal at that location. The system is designed to ensure that it will only capture an offence when the equipment is working correctly.
Kind regards
Beverley Spellman, Highways England National Consistency Manager, Service Delivery SE
Way back in the last century when I started driving, there used to be (small) repeater signs for any non-NSL stretches of road. I think they had to be at regular distances (100 yds maybe). On a more recent SAC course I was told that there was no longer a prescribed interval between them, but they had to be "frequent". Is that true, and if so, how would it apply in this example ?
gothatway said:
Way back in the last century when I started driving, there used to be (small) repeater signs for any non-NSL stretches of road. I think they had to be at regular distances (100 yds maybe). On a more recent SAC course I was told that there was no longer a prescribed interval between them, but they had to be "frequent". Is that true, and if so, how would it apply in this example ?
The repeater minimum distance being changed was more to do with urban situations where it was resulting in too many signs and was relaxed.On motorways people are getting hung up on this far too much.
No displayed sign can not be construed as a sign saying something else.
The speed limit is otherwise the last sign seen
If the previous sign is anything but NSL, and there are no repeater signs for a period of 900m (UK Traffic Signs Manual - Chapter 3 Regulatory Signs. 2008 (Second Impression 2008), may have be a later version) then the road is incorrectly signed
Ashleyman,
Interesting. But of course doesn't cover the moronic operator problem.
Interesting. But of course doesn't cover the moronic operator problem.
- Different speed limits in different lanes (not a slip road thing)
- Forgetting to show the NSL sign thus enforcing 20 miles of unnecessary 40 mph limit with no signing.
- Showing 40 in roadworks on the gantries but 50 on the regular metal signs.
BertBert said:
ghe13rte said:
This wishful thinking is getting tedious.
At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends” and has a fekkin great NSL sign.
The unlit AMI is not an NSL sign.
But we've been here before. You make these definitive statements with lots of huffing and eye-raising but can never show us any materials to back it up. You may well be right but when there is no backup info and as we have seen, published info that might contradict it, what do you expect?At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends” and has a fekkin great NSL sign.
The unlit AMI is not an NSL sign.
Bert
I believe there should be an NSL on the next gantry after a variable limit has been lifted, but it rarely happens which I can only guess is down to human error and begs the question, can someone be accused of speeding if the NSL hasn't been lit? Which is basically what the op has asked. Not from a fixed camera, but what about police on patrol? If the NSL sign needing to be lit isn't law at the moment I believe it eventually will be.
Edit for the pedants. Yes, I know there's a section in Dartford that is classed as an A road and not M25.
Edited by mygoldfishbowl on Tuesday 28th August 09:17
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