exhaust levels and fine
Discussion
rsnissan said: I think this is an unfair approach. I basically means that the police can say your car is too loud with any system that is louder than standard (no matter how by how much) IF they wanted to. In court all it would boil down to is;
There is no point whingeing on here about what is fair.
Those are the facts as they stand. The regulation does not just apply to exhausts, only Regs 54 and 57 cover the actual fitting of silencers.
Reg 97 caters for any excess noise, including unecessary revving of engines prior to the GT start at a set of traffic lights, spinning of wheels causing screeching from the tyres, Novaboy Maxpower boomboxes.
Unnecesary use of te horn is covered by tis and by regulation 99 as well.
I will transcrpt the text from the notes in the law book that I use for the regulations.
'Given the Government's committment to exerting greater control over the effects that road traffic has on the community, these regulations in particular may become more prominent.'
That is not suggesting that the Police will use them more than they do now. IMO that means that this is just the start of attempts by the Govt to restrict the use of cars and motorcyles more, by introding more measures to control them.
Whinge to your M.P. and you may make your point but still waste your breath (or ink)
Life aint fair. Get used to it!
madcop said:
rsnissan said: I think this is an unfair approach. I basically means that the police can say your car is too loud with any system that is louder than standard (no matter how by how much) IF they wanted to. In court all it would boil down to is;
There is no point whingeing on here about what is fair.
madcop I am not whingeing about anything. I am merely agreeing with mondeoman's comments about it being unjust that all thats required is an officers opinion. This is all IMHO and am grateful for the advice you have given to clear up the issue.
Regards
Andy
Andy I've heard your exhaust and its fairly loud...esp on a cold eve in Harwich..
Madcop....
If you were to get a tug from the police and the officer asks if your exhaust is non standard, by saying yes you effectivley reinforce the officers opinion...thus incurring a fine. If you were to say 'I dont know' or 'its standard' or what if you genuinely didnt know...what would happen then?
>> Edited by DimmaDan on Wednesday 23 October 11:36
Madcop....
If you were to get a tug from the police and the officer asks if your exhaust is non standard, by saying yes you effectivley reinforce the officers opinion...thus incurring a fine. If you were to say 'I dont know' or 'its standard' or what if you genuinely didnt know...what would happen then?
>> Edited by DimmaDan on Wednesday 23 October 11:36
madcop said:
.........Unless of course you are advocating that the Police should not deal with such trivial matters where motorists are concerned at all
Now you're talkin my language!!
Better course of action IMO would've been for the policeman to stop him, quick check for legality (car roadworthiness, roadtax, insurance and driving licence), then send him on his way with a word about getting the exhaust changed (a correction notice perhaps?).
There are plent of vehicles out there that should be taken off the roads because of defects, but IMO a slightly overload exhaust is a waste of police time. Sorry, but thats wot I think.
If you are generally a law abiding, tax paying, home owning citizen you are screwed - be an unemployed scrote and you can do pretty much wot you want seems to me to be the order of the day. Just an observation.
Edited cos my spellin was shite - but thats for you to spot!
>> Edited by mondeoman on Wednesday 23 October 13:02
DimmaDan said: Andy I've heard your exhaust and its fairly loud...esp on a cold eve in Harwich..
Madcop....
If you were to get a tug from the police and the officer asks if your exhaust is non standard, by saying yes you effectivley reinforce the officers opinion...thus incurring a fine. If you were to say 'I dont know' or 'its standard' or what if you genuinely didnt know...what would happen then?
It doesn't take a huge amount of inteligence to determine that there is something not quite right with an exhaust system. You would probably agree with me that if there is a small hole in the system or a leak at the manifold end, then it is quite easy to detect.
If I had put an exhaust which wasn't standard onto a car or bike that I was using and it was substantially louder than it ought to be, then if I was pulled by the Police, I would keep my mouth shut about the modification side of it. A small degree of increase in noise is acceptable and probably not detectable. I know someone who has a sports exhaust on a Chimaera. The exhasut has ben modified by placing some stainless tubes through the system to divert exhuast gasses away from the baffle system. Totally illegal to do but has not made a huge difference to the volume of the noise. It is a bit louder but sounds more throaty as a result. That sort of modification is not easy to detect unless someone admits it. It would not however stop a Police Officer making a judgement that it was too loud and issuing a ticket.
My experience of dealing with these sort of offences is that the ones that get tickets, really do deserve them because they are taking the p!ss. I haven't had the benefit of hearing the exhaust in question for myself. I may be of a different opinion to the officer that issued the ticket, but both of you admit that it is loud. If you both think that, it is reasonable to assume that someone else did too.
I wil give you a bit of advice.
Any offender regardless of the seriousness of the ofence or the type of offence (Traffic or Crime), when detected by a Police officer should be issued with a caution when the officer has grounds to know an offence has been committed.
As soon as the caution is issued, then you are obliged to say nothing else. Need I say any more.
The words of the caution are.
You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned, something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.
As I said before, a caution must be given by Police, immediately that they have evidence of an offence committed.
I hope that helps.
DimmaDan said: cheers madcop....
I know this is not the place for this sort of question, but why doesnt the government have the same system for cars as bikes? ie road or race stamps..
I have absolutely no idea. Like many things with this
Govt I am at a loss as to why they do some things and don't do others. Don't want to turn this into a political rant but last night on Sky I saw a programme with Harry Enfield doing a sketch of a
Labour canvaser. On the doorstep the voter was encouraged to look in the hair of the prospective M.P. 
'L is for Labour', 'L is for Lice' 
Thanks for your contributions madcop, I think this proves the law is a bit of an ass. So an Evo VII with a sports exhaust at say 100dB would be finable because the standard exhaust is say 98dB and the sports exhaust is louder yet the TVR with a standard exhaust is say 105dB but is not punishable although it is louder. Daft innit 
Still I suppose it actually benefits drivers of TVRs etc. because if any specific noise legislation was brought in most TVRs would be illegal.
Still I suppose it actually benefits drivers of TVRs etc. because if any specific noise legislation was brought in most TVRs would be illegal. 
Kevinday
I never ever said all laws were good laws
They are however laws and some of those people that are charged to uphold them, will do so and use an opinion to do it.
Where noise is concerned, it is a useful tool to employ against the toerag/maxpower type idiot (not all of them are idiots, just a bit sad). Skidding wheels attracts a £30 hole in the wallet
The benefit comes on the endorsable offences (some of which are nit picking) Dangerous parts is a good one (lift the bonnet and check to see if the battery is secured, loads of them are not).
Give them enough of these and they get banned on totting up.
Once disqaulified, the courts tend to send them down where they don't for appearing on a burglary or mugging charge.
Carl I can't say why it seems more acceptable to hear a noisy V8 other than it may be something to do with the pitch of the noise. Lower pitches are less disturbing to the ear than high loud pitches, so I assume that the V8 being much lower in pitch is more pleasing than a high revving high pitched engine.
More to do with accoustics than exhausts I think?
I never ever said all laws were good laws
They are however laws and some of those people that are charged to uphold them, will do so and use an opinion to do it.
Where noise is concerned, it is a useful tool to employ against the toerag/maxpower type idiot (not all of them are idiots, just a bit sad). Skidding wheels attracts a £30 hole in the wallet
The benefit comes on the endorsable offences (some of which are nit picking) Dangerous parts is a good one (lift the bonnet and check to see if the battery is secured, loads of them are not).
Give them enough of these and they get banned on totting up.
Once disqaulified, the courts tend to send them down where they don't for appearing on a burglary or mugging charge.
Carl I can't say why it seems more acceptable to hear a noisy V8 other than it may be something to do with the pitch of the noise. Lower pitches are less disturbing to the ear than high loud pitches, so I assume that the V8 being much lower in pitch is more pleasing than a high revving high pitched engine.
More to do with accoustics than exhausts I think?
madcop said:
Carl I can't say why it seems more acceptable to hear a noisy V8 other than it may be something to do with the pitch of the noise. Lower pitches are less disturbing to the ear than high loud pitches, so I assume that the V8 being much lower in pitch is more pleasing than a high revving high pitched engine.
More to do with accoustics than exhausts I think?
What is an exhaust if not a tuned acoustic device?
Sorry to jump in on this so late in the game, but isn't there some kind of Draconian law that states any deviation from the manufacturer's type-approved-and-tested specification can be deemed an offence? Which would make all cars with aftermarket modifications illegal on more straightforward terms than an opinion of noise. As far as I remember, this was told to me while I was researching a feature about exhausts, so I might be wrong. 
Madcop?
Madcop?Spoonman - sounds like you're thinking of the German TuV.
As far as V8 burble vs 4pot scream... MadCop's right - it is a matetr of accoustics.. it's to do with the way ears work.. a 500Hz tone at 100dB(a) @1m will sound much less lound than a 4khz tone at the same amplitude.
This is because the human ear is more attuned to higher frequencies. An evolutionary side effect no doubt.
As far as V8 burble vs 4pot scream... MadCop's right - it is a matetr of accoustics.. it's to do with the way ears work.. a 500Hz tone at 100dB(a) @1m will sound much less lound than a 4khz tone at the same amplitude.
This is because the human ear is more attuned to higher frequencies. An evolutionary side effect no doubt.
DavidP said: madcop
Did I understand your previous post about cautions. Do BiB's have to caution before handing out any FPN's?
If yes, and they don't, does that invalidate the FPN?
Ta in advance
The law quite clearly states that as soon as a Police officer has evidence of an offence (and that is any offence, traffic or crime), he MUST caution the offender and the word are to be :-
"you do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence....."
The fact that someone is to be dealt with by fixed penalty does not negate this requirement. The procedure is the same whether the officer decides that fixed penalty is more appropriate or that the offender sould receive a summons.
If you are stopped, informed of an offence and not cautioned, there is a technical breach of the law and it could lead to magistrates throwing it out if you were to plead not guilty. At least the verbals side of the evidence would be excluded.
If you were not cautioned then the officer was to offer evidence of what was said after the offence had been detected, then all that evidence would become inadmissable.
The only time that the requirement to caution is relinquished, is if at the time, it is impracticable to do so i.e. you are punching ten bells out of the guy or he is punching you, or the person is in such a state as to be unaware of the meaning of the caution i.e. he is mentally unstable or paralitic.
My advice is that if you are stopped, informed of an offence and cautioned, if you have mittigating circumstances, then tell the officer what they are but nothing else which may incriminate you.
If you are not cautioned and issued with a fixed penalty, depending on all the other evidence, keep talking. Make a note immediately after the interaction of exactly what was said and if you have a witness, get them to sign it as corroborating what was said. Then if there is some doubt as to the reliability of the other evidence, give it a go.
Notes made at the time, or as soon as reasonably practicable after the event may be used in reference when giving evidence. Saves trying to remember 6 months later. That is why Police have pocket note books which are used as diaries and for the very purpose of notes at the time.
The bottom line is The Police MUST caution if they are to FPT or report for offences.
>> Edited by madcop on Thursday 24th October 14:55
Spoonman said: ... Which would make all cars with aftermarket modifications illegal on more straightforward terms than an opinion of noise. As far as I remember, this was told to me while I was researching a feature about exhausts, so I might be wrong.
All vehicles that are made under mass production have to be subjected, by law, to type approval before they can be produced. Certain parts which are fitted to the vehicle which are fitted as replacements do not necessarily have to be the same as the originals but they must be BS approved. An exhaust that has been bastardised would not therefore comply with a British standard.
I am not sure, but I dont think all makes of exhaust or tyres are actually type approved. They must however be compatable with British Standards.
madcop said:And yet there is a totally different deal if you are not stopped in order to issue an FPN, but receive an NIP in the post...
The bottom line is The Police MUST caution if they are to FPT or report for offences.
Then, the caution is:
Not that I've got anything against NIPs & Sec.172.
You do not have the right to remain silent. You have the right to read this sitting down. You have no other rights in respect of this notice. We've got your name now and we'll pin something on you because the Chief Constable says that's what we're giving the impression of cracking down on this month. Please post this notice back along with your license so we can shred the latter and wipe our arses on the former.
Surrey Police Thanks you for your Co-operation in our endeavour to save ickle children from muderous motor vehicles.
BTW MadCop - the word you were looking for is 'contemporaneous'
Madcop, how would one go about *proving* that no verbal caution was given?
If you decided to take it to court, and the nice man in Blue says "Yer Honour, I gave a caution" - who do you think the Beak is going to beleive? hmmm.
(When I was stopped 4.5 years ago, I got a FPN, but NO CAUTION. Unknowingly I took the FPN. Had I known of the need for a caution, I would have contested it.)
rgds.
If you decided to take it to court, and the nice man in Blue says "Yer Honour, I gave a caution" - who do you think the Beak is going to beleive? hmmm.
(When I was stopped 4.5 years ago, I got a FPN, but NO CAUTION. Unknowingly I took the FPN. Had I known of the need for a caution, I would have contested it.)
rgds.
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