Impact Kills - Not Speed !
Discussion
318ti said:
Yes the impact is the killer, but could you have avoided the impact if going slower and thus allowing more time to react? Or would you be able to stop short of the impact if going slower?
Erm scuse moi! That point of view makes little sense.
It could equally be argued that going faster would have cleared you of the circumstances conspiring against you, and thus you still avoid the impact.
In actual fact, this very scenario occurs innumerable times every single day.
How many "near misses" have you had in the last week for example?
Im not talking about near misses that you were even aware of, im talking about those that *could* have happened, but didnt, cos you were already out of the particular area, and so ceased to become a factor in your own crash.
Agreed, speeding *can* kill on occasion, but since when did simply exceeding the painted numbers on a sign anywhere automatically initiate an accident with NO other factors?
Speed dosent kill on its own, it cant.
Not very catchy though is it?
The goverment want to reduce the number of KSI's on the roads
Reducing speed/energy involved in the impact will reduce these KSI's but acidents wil still happen whatever the speed not looking where you are going at 30 or 70 has the same effect just the energy is different
Acidents will happen at any speed 30 or 70 plus the increase in speed reduses the time for reaction and corrective action
To reduse the number of acidents requires training and skill Ie Police advanced driving IAM ROSPA etc.
A healthy fear of death helps to keep you consentrated just like working on LIVE electrics go for a drive in a Caterfield and you will see what I mean.
Paul.
Reducing speed/energy involved in the impact will reduce these KSI's but acidents wil still happen whatever the speed not looking where you are going at 30 or 70 has the same effect just the energy is different
Acidents will happen at any speed 30 or 70 plus the increase in speed reduses the time for reaction and corrective action
To reduse the number of acidents requires training and skill Ie Police advanced driving IAM ROSPA etc.
A healthy fear of death helps to keep you consentrated just like working on LIVE electrics go for a drive in a Caterfield and you will see what I mean.
Paul.
tonyrec said:
I totally agree with what you are saying, so we have a choice-:
1) Speed can Kill
2) Impacts can Kill
3) Driver Error can Kill
The choice is yours.
Driver error causes both of the above though.
Error in the application of speed.
Error in postion of vehicle.
Error in overtaking.
The only thing is matey, ya cant measure driver error, so no nice profits to be made.
deltaf said:
I totally agree with what you are saying, so we have a choice-:
1) Speed can Kill
2) Impacts can Kill
3) Driver Error can Kill
The choice is yours.
Driver error causes both of the above though.
Error in the application of speed.
Error in postion of vehicle.
Error in overtaking.
The only thing is matey, ya cant measure driver error, so no nice profits to be made.
spot on cant make money out of it.
1) I thought pedestrians were a major contributary factor in over 80% of accidents, and speeding in less than 10%? So PEDESTRIANS KILL!!!!!
2) Possibility of doing 110 instead of 70 means you avoid an incident that may have occured if you'd been in a different place at that time?? SPEED SAVES!!!!!!
I'll just go get my coat...
2) Possibility of doing 110 instead of 70 means you avoid an incident that may have occured if you'd been in a different place at that time?? SPEED SAVES!!!!!!
I'll just go get my coat...
You're spot on Tony, speed doesn't kill, impact kills.
That's why circumstances where impact is more likely (heavy traffic, driving in built up areas etc) call for lower speeds that:
A) reduce the chance of impact in the first place by allowing more time to stop.
B) reduce the severity of any impact that does occur, thereby improving the chances of survival.
Not forgetting of course that it's also the responsiblity of EVERY road user whether on four wheels, two wheels or two legs to pay attention and try to prevent situations that could lead to an impact in the first place.
The problem is of course that's something the 'safety camera partnerships' do seem to have forgetten.
That's why circumstances where impact is more likely (heavy traffic, driving in built up areas etc) call for lower speeds that:
A) reduce the chance of impact in the first place by allowing more time to stop.
B) reduce the severity of any impact that does occur, thereby improving the chances of survival.
Not forgetting of course that it's also the responsiblity of EVERY road user whether on four wheels, two wheels or two legs to pay attention and try to prevent situations that could lead to an impact in the first place.
The problem is of course that's something the 'safety camera partnerships' do seem to have forgetten.
The Human body can only survive a sudden decelerating impact of around 30mph to zero. Any more than this then the internal organs continue to accelerate into the inside of the body causing death by trauma.
No matter how well designed an air bag is, if you suddenly stop from 30mph+ you will not survive.
Collapsible street furniture will reduce the speed of impact but only by so much.
The moral of the story is – The faster you travel the more chance of death.
>> Edited by Monster1 on Monday 10th November 14:24
Monster1 said:
The Human body can only survive a sudden decelerating impact of around 30mph to zero. Any more than this then the internal organs continue to accelerate into the inside of the body causing death by trauma.
No matter how well designed an air bag is, if you suddenly stop from 30mph+ you will not survive.
Collapsible street furniture will reduce the speed of impact but only by so much.
The moral of the story is – The faster you travel the more chance of death.
Nigel Mansell, Indy car, Concrete wall 200 mph impact.
Walked away ish.
Mark Blundell, same scenario, same thing.
Its not the speed, its the deceleration forces generated.
How high they go, and for what duration and also what it is ur going into.
Monster1 said:
The Human body can only survive a sudden decelerating impact of around 30mph to zero. Any more than this then the internal organs continue to accelerate into the inside of the body causing death by trauma.
No matter how well designed an air bag is, if you suddenly stop from 30mph+ you will not survive.
Collapsible street furniture will reduce the speed of impact but only by so much.
The moral of the story is – The faster you travel the more chance of death.
>> Edited by Monster1 on Monday 10th November 14:24
Guess im not that human
I have hit a brick wall at 85 with out so much as a scratch.
Please bear in mind i want driving some one else was
if you can call it
ing driving. and some of the smacks i seen pepole walk away from im starting to belive that the day you die and how is a set fact.
it just destainy
>> Edited by outlaw on Monday 10th November 14:45
>> Edited by outlaw on Monday 10th November 14:47
>> Edited by outlaw on Monday 10th November 14:47
deltaf said:When they first designed ejector seats for airplanes they thought the G force would be too much for the human body. So the scientist who designed them strapped himself in and proved it was safe. He then did further tests to prove that a human body could survive something like 30G of deceleration without permenant damage.
The Human body can only survive a sudden decelerating impact of around 30mph to zero. Any more than this then the internal organs continue to accelerate into the inside of the body causing death by trauma.
No matter how well designed an air bag is, if you suddenly stop from 30mph+ you will not survive.
Collapsible street furniture will reduce the speed of impact but only by so much.
The moral of the story is - The faster you travel the more chance of death.
Walked away ish.
Mark Blundell, same scenario, same thing.
Its not the speed, its the deceleration forces generated.
How high they go, and for what duration and also what it is ur going into.
So the human body can survive MASSIVE forces if properly restrained.
The problem with most road accidents is that A. the body is not restrained properly (no full harness etc in most cars - and not legal on the road anyway) and B. lots of hard objects protrude into the shell of the car during an accident (bulkheads, steering wheels etc). Hence you hit something hard (or it hits you) and damages the body beyond repair.
So to make cars safe for the occupants you just need to strap them in properly and make sure nothing can hit them when the impact occurs. Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen due to costs and it will do nothing to help the other road users such as bikers and pedestrians.
The whole issue rests on risk assesment. Drivers in general (and i include myself here) have no real appreciation of the risks we are all taking when driving. Sure, on an intellectual level we are aware of the risks but not on an instinctive level.
Remember that feeling of complete terror the first time your instructor took you through a major junction or bloody great round about? If we all drove with just a hint of that caution and awareness the roads would be much safer!
>> Edited by MilnerR on Monday 10th November 17:58
Remember that feeling of complete terror the first time your instructor took you through a major junction or bloody great round about? If we all drove with just a hint of that caution and awareness the roads would be much safer!
>> Edited by MilnerR on Monday 10th November 17:58
IMHO Speed does not kill
examples
1.man jumps out of a plane at 20,000 ft he achieves very high speeds,his parachute opens and he slowly reduces speed lands alive.Same event but parachute fails to open THE RAPID DECELERATION kills him
2 Child hit by a fast car it is not the speed that kills but the SUDDEN IMPACT.
What lower speeds do is increase driver "awareness" thus allowing him/her to avoid the incident
examples
1.man jumps out of a plane at 20,000 ft he achieves very high speeds,his parachute opens and he slowly reduces speed lands alive.Same event but parachute fails to open THE RAPID DECELERATION kills him
2 Child hit by a fast car it is not the speed that kills but the SUDDEN IMPACT.
What lower speeds do is increase driver "awareness" thus allowing him/her to avoid the incident
Lower speeds do not necessarily increase driver awareness. They can cause driver drowsiness through lack of concentration. This shouldn't be the case of course, but it can be.
Like driving slowly on a motorway, it's boring so you switch off -- too slowly for the perceived conditions anywhere and the brain switches off after a while. Just like truck drivers at 56mph for hour after hour -- no wonder they fall asleep with nothing to do.
However, there has been little focus on the effects of low limits. Just the assumption that lower speeds will not be accompanied by lower concentration -- just the assumption, no research, no proof. How many lives are lost by that assumption being invalid?
Like driving slowly on a motorway, it's boring so you switch off -- too slowly for the perceived conditions anywhere and the brain switches off after a while. Just like truck drivers at 56mph for hour after hour -- no wonder they fall asleep with nothing to do.
However, there has been little focus on the effects of low limits. Just the assumption that lower speeds will not be accompanied by lower concentration -- just the assumption, no research, no proof. How many lives are lost by that assumption being invalid?
I have had a truly inspired idea! Cameras cost what...£40,000? Bales of hay cost £4 and you can get used tyres for nowt...so...
1. Take out all the cameras and replace them with hay bales and tyre walls!!
2. Take the camera operators off their current duties and put them at accident black spot with different coloured flags!!
3. Make all roads one-way!!
Yaya!! Racetrack UK
1. Take out all the cameras and replace them with hay bales and tyre walls!!
2. Take the camera operators off their current duties and put them at accident black spot with different coloured flags!!
3. Make all roads one-way!!
Yaya!! Racetrack UK
madant69 said:
I have had a truly inspired idea! Cameras cost what...£40,000? Bales of hay cost £4 and you can get used tyres for nowt...so...
1. Take out all the cameras and replace them with hay bales and tyre walls!!
2. Take the camera operators off their current duties and put them at accident black spot with different coloured flags!!
3. Make all roads one-way!!
Yaya!! Racetrack UK
Lol now thats an idea i can identify with!
At first i thought you were gonna suggest burning them all though......must just be my mind..
Monster1 said:
The moral of the story is – The faster you travel the more chance of death.
That's false in several important ways.
1) Few impacts take place at free travelling speed. Drivers slow for specific hazards and in hazardous places, and that's where they mostly have accidents. In an australian survey of junction accidents, only 28% took place without braking before impact - but many of those 28% might have involved drivers slowing in an area of danger.
2) People drive fastest where there are fewest hazards and fewest risks. This is why motorways are driven faster than town roads and also why motorways are safer than town roads.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
It's interesting how the goverment can use terms that are incorrect and are allowed to get away with it.
e.g.(1) Speed Kills
Lack of definition - i.e. Which particular speed ? Concorde hits mach2.0 - hmm - do all passengers die?
e.g.(2) Unleaded petrol
Contains guess what ? - yes you got it - lead.
Lucas wanted to advertise their diesel injection system pointing out that diesel is lead free - banned by maggies crowd as would distract from unleaded petrol campaign.
So I say "Parents Kill" - if you were never born you couldn't die.. qed.
Illgetmycoat.
e.g.(1) Speed Kills
Lack of definition - i.e. Which particular speed ? Concorde hits mach2.0 - hmm - do all passengers die?
e.g.(2) Unleaded petrol
Contains guess what ? - yes you got it - lead.
Lucas wanted to advertise their diesel injection system pointing out that diesel is lead free - banned by maggies crowd as would distract from unleaded petrol campaign.
So I say "Parents Kill" - if you were never born you couldn't die.. qed.
Illgetmycoat.
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