Blanket 20mph limit across Wales from 2023

[bigothunter]

Kawasicki said:

Yes, how speeding laws are enforced is a subjective matter.

Subjective (adj) - emotional; based on inner experience rather than fact

Synonyms:
abstract, biased, idiosyncratic, illusory, instinctive, intuitive, personal, fanciful, individual, introspective, introverted, nonobjective, non-representative, prejudiced, unobjective


Yes the 20 mph limit fits like a glove...

[Tyre Tread]

Reported on BBC1 news this morning that the WG are considering exempting buses from the 20 mph speed limits.

[Evanivitch]

Tyre Tread said:

Reported on BBC1 news this morning that the WG are considering exempting buses from the 20 mph speed limits.

That's not quite what was reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67482912

"Bus lanes should be exempt from the new 20mph speed limit in Wales where it is safe to do so, according to a report.

Centre for Cities has found Wales has the second lowest levels of bus ridership in the UK and its bus network has shrunk the most.

It said substantial investment is needed to attract more passengers.

The Welsh government said it was monitoring the impact of the 20mph limit on buses."

[camel_landy]

Evanivitch said:

That's not quite what was reported.

TT summarised it quite nicely as the WG aren't likely to only implement when it's reckless to do so...
...but then this is the WG, maybe they wanted to turn over a new leaf and spice things up a little.

M

[Evanivitch]

camel_landy said:

TT summarised it quite nicely as the WG aren't likely to only implement when it's reckless to do so...
...but then this is the WG, maybe they wanted to turn over a new leaf and spice things up a little.

M

Summarised the bit that Senedd didn't say they were considering it and the independent report (no way connected to Senedd) specifically referred to bus lanes?

Don't let the details get in the way of the pitchforks, clearly.

[Byker28i]

vonhosen said:

bigothunter said:

vonhosen said:

So they are driving at slower speeds in the 20 limits than they are/were in the 30 limits?
If the purpose is to slow people down, then that would mean it's working doesn't it (as 'strict' compliance isn't really the goal).

So compliance with some laws isn't necessary because they are notional. Interesting precedent

The threshold guidance demonstrates that although speeding is a strict liability offence, it is not, as matter of course, enforced with a zero tolerance.
(A lot of other countries enforce at far lower tolerance levels).
This is nothing new or surprising.

There is a sliding scale of disposal options for those who exceed by larger margins.

This was all known from their trials though. in the 20mph zones trialed it only reduced speed by 3mph, 36pc of motorists ignored the limit, it had no difference on casualty figures or air quality. It also said they'd need a further 3 years of figures to work out if it was successful.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs...

[BoRED S2upid]

Evanivitch said:

That's not quite what was reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67482912

"Bus lanes should be exempt from the new 20mph speed limit in Wales where it is safe to do so, according to a report.

Centre for Cities has found Wales has the second lowest levels of bus ridership in the UK and its bus network has shrunk the most.

It said substantial investment is needed to attract more passengers.

The Welsh government said it was monitoring the impact of the 20mph limit on buses."

I’m no expert but I’m going to have a wild guess that cost and frequency of buses is a bigger factor to ridership!

How much to get into Cardiff on a bus from day 5miles out?

[Dracoro]

Why are buses to be excluded? I assume the whole point of the 20mph limits is "safety" therefore they should be included, especially so as their stopping distances will be worse than cars etc.!!

[Evanivitch]

Dracoro said:

Why are buses to be excluded? I assume the whole point of the 20mph limits is "safety" therefore they should be included, especially so as their stopping distances will be worse than cars etc.!!

Because an independent think tank that has nothing to do with Wales or the Welsh Government has thought it was a good idea in bus lanes to improve bus services.

[bigothunter]

Evanivitch said:

Tyre Tread said:

Reported on BBC1 news this morning that the WG are considering exempting buses from the 20 mph speed limits.

That's not quite what was reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67482912

"Bus lanes should be exempt from the new 20mph speed limit in Wales where it is safe to do so, according to a report.

Centre for Cities has found Wales has the second lowest levels of bus ridership in the UK and its bus network has shrunk the most.

It said substantial investment is needed to attract more passengers.

The Welsh government said it was monitoring the impact of the 20mph limit on buses."

Census 2021 said:

There were 150 residents per square kilometre in Wales in 2021. The population density in Wales is considerably lower than the population density in England, where there were 434 residents per square kilometre.

The least densely populated local authority was Powys (26 residents per square kilometre). Other areas with low population density included Ceredigion (40 residents per square kilometre) and Gwynedd (46 residents per square kilometre).



https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...

Buses, bus lanes and 20 mph exemptions have potential in the extreme south and north east corner. But over the vast majority of Wales, there simply aren't enough people to make buses viable.

[bmwmike]

Are those the same bus lanes that taxis and cyclists share?

[Evanivitch]

bigothunter said:

Buses, bus lanes and 20 mph exemptions have potential in the extreme south and north east corner. But over the vast majority of Wales, there simply aren't enough people to make buses viable.

Which is why, for a time, a on-demand (demand responsive services) bus service was available in several rural areas.

https://nation.cymru/news/rural-bwcabus-service-ax...

[bigothunter]

Evanivitch said:

Dracoro said:

Why are buses to be excluded? I assume the whole point of the 20mph limits is "safety" therefore they should be included, especially so as their stopping distances will be worse than cars etc.!!

Because an independent think tank that has nothing to do with Wales or the Welsh Government has thought it was a good idea in bus lanes to improve bus services.

BBC News said:

The Welsh government wants 45% of all journeys in Wales to be made on public transport and active travel by 2040.

Higher congestion could make public transport more appealing than the car.

Safety justification is a smokescreen. And 20 limits increase congestion which is a strategic benefit.

What's not to like?

[bigothunter]

Evanivitch said:

bigothunter said:

Buses, bus lanes and 20 mph exemptions have potential in the extreme south and north east corner. But over the vast majority of Wales, there simply aren't enough people to make buses viable.

Which is why, for a time, a on-demand (demand responsive services) bus service was available in several rural areas.

https://nation.cymru/news/rural-bwcabus-service-ax...

How many cars does each Rural Bwcabus replace?

[camel_landy]

BoRED S2upid said:

I’m no expert but I’m going to have a wild guess that cost and frequency of buses is a bigger factor to ridership!

How much to get into Cardiff on a bus from day 5miles out?

Yep... Frequency, cost, convenience (lack of) and lack of joined up thinking.

When I think of busses, I just shake my head in despair. Swansea have their bus station at the opposite end of the city from the train station. Additionally, I can't even get a bus on a Sunday, let alone one which takes me somewhere I want to go. <sigh>

M

[Pica-Pica]

bigothunter said:

Buses, bus lanes and 20 mph exemptions have potential in the extreme south and north east corner. But over the vast majority of Wales, there simply aren't enough people to make buses viable.

In North West Wales, buses are well used, so presumably viable. We frequently take the bus to town, saves bothering with car parking. Also, as I have previously written, a recent bypass has eased town traffic, so the effect of 20mph limit is minimised for ALL motor traffic. Then again, this is Gwynedd, who have gone about this a bit better than others.

[oakdale]

I'm no expert so can't comment on the quality or validity of the Welsh Gov 20mph speed limit order but they don't seem overconfident themselves.
https://business.senedd.wales/documents/s127574/We...





I think when they say non-textual, they are referring to the fact that no amendment has been made to section 81(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation 1984, they have just generated a separate and very basic statutory instrument which says where it says 30mph in the RTR it should be interpreted to mean 20mph in Wales.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2022/800/made

Edited by oakdale on Tuesday 21st November 20:01

Edited by oakdale on Tuesday 21st November 23:05

[camel_landy]

Meanwhile, in other news...

Clean air zone: Senedd to debate M4 pollution charge

M

[Evanivitch]

camel_landy said:

Yep... Frequency, cost, convenience (lack of) and lack of joined up thinking.

When I think of busses, I just shake my head in despair. Swansea have their bus station at the opposite end of the city from the train station. Additionally, I can't even get a bus on a Sunday, let alone one which takes me somewhere I want to go. <sigh>

M

Swansea kept the wrong train station (Victoria was located where LC2 is now), which is why there's the historical disconnect between the bus station and the train station.

[camel_landy]

Evanivitch said:

Swansea kept the wrong train station (Victoria was located where LC2 is now), which is why there's the historical disconnect between the bus station and the train station.

...and that makes it better because?

M