Blanket 20mph limit across Wales from 2023

[Evanivitch]

Tyre Tread said:

Evanivitch said:

oakdale said:

WG criticised for telling porkies.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wels...

No, they weren't.

The numbers haven't been put into doubt.

The criticism is that the source referenced wasn't the original source, and that the original analysis was not made public.

Back in your box.

Well the BBC Wales news used the word "Misleading" which we all know is a polite way of saying porkies.

On TV?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67514763

[timster]

So in your opinion could they have done anything differently or communicated it better? In your opinion is the 20mph much better for the people and country? Genuine question

[oakdale]

All cleared up by the WG now, their calculations are based on the assumption that we'll all ignore the 20mph limit anyway.

https://www.gov.wales/technical-note-arup-journey-...

[camel_landy]

oakdale said:

All cleared up by the WG now, their calculations are based on the assumption that we'll all ignore the 20mph limit anyway.

https://www.gov.wales/technical-note-arup-journey-...

Yep, just when you thought we'd reached the limits of hair splitting, WG reach new depths.

A bit more here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67514763

M

[.:ian:.]

If the average speed in a 30 is 22, why bother wasting millions changing the limit to 20?

[Evanivitch]

.:ian:. said:

If the average speed in a 30 is 22, why bother wasting millions changing the limit to 20?

The difference in free-flow and typical conditions.

[cirian75]

Oh god, I drove for the 1st time on Wales since this came into force.

This is stupid, people dawdling at just 15mph, never once reaching reaching 20 and dropping below 15 when they go over a hill or approach a dip as they expect speed camera vans to be lying in wait

[robinh73]

cirian75 said:

Oh god, I drove for the 1st time on Wales since this came into force.

This is stupid, people dawdling at just 15mph, never once reaching reaching 20 and dropping below 15 when they go over a hill or approach a dip as they expect speed camera vans to be lying in wait

It is diabolical isn't it. I live in North Wales and am getting driven mad by it. Fixing something that was never broken. It is causing havoc.

[Evanivitch]

30mph repeaters have started appearing on exempted stretches of roads.

[oakdale]

Evanivitch said:

.:ian:. said:

If the average speed in a 30 is 22, why bother wasting millions changing the limit to 20?

The difference in free-flow and typical conditions.

The explanation given by the WG for the journey time figures they've produced suggest that they either condone or at least expect people to break the 20mph limit, do they expect buses and vehicles with black boxes to do 26mph in free flowing traffic?

The 30mph limit we've had for nearly 90 years was quite adequate, modern cars can stop much quicker than they could years ago and we should remember that 30mph was the maximum speed, you could still be prosecuted for dangerous driving at 30mph or less if doing something stupid.
To bring in an impractically slow national speed limit which they know people won't obey just promotes anarchy on the roads in my view.

Can anyone in the know explain to me why section 81 of the Road Traffic Regulations 1984 (which applies to all of the uk), hasn't been changed? Someone reading it would think the limit is 30mph in Wales, there is no mention of a 20mph limit.
It does mention that the limit can be changed by statutory instrument (and I know the WG have made one) but there is no reference to this or outstanding changes listed.

[Evanivitch]

oakdale said:

The explanation given by the WG for the journey time figures they've produced suggest that they either condone or at least expect people to break the 20mph limit, do they expect buses and vehicles with black boxes to do 26mph in free flowing traffic?

They expect people to break the limit. The enforcement limit even allows extra space to do so (set at 10%+4).

I'm aware that busses already break the speed limit. I'm unsure whether blackboxes are affected. I've been surprised how often I've seen some commercial vehicles as I thought many had fleet monitoring these days (MoD "white-fleet" is very tightly monitored).

oakdale said:

.
To bring in an impractically slow national speed limit which they know people won't obey just promotes anarchy on the roads in my view.

Have you seen anarchy, yet?

oakdale said:

.
Can anyone in the know explain to me why section 81 of the Road Traffic Regulations 1984 (which applies to all of the uk), hasn't been changed?

Because it's not required to change, and clearly states that Welsh Ministers may do so by SI.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...

[camel_landy]

oakdale said:

The 30mph limit we've had for nearly 90 years was quite adequate, modern cars can stop much quicker than they could years ago and we should remember that 30mph was the maximum speed, you could still be prosecuted for dangerous driving at 30mph or less if doing something stupid.
To bring in an impractically slow national speed limit which they know people won't obey just promotes anarchy on the roads in my view.

Whilst car safety has significantly improved, road safety education has significantly dropped. However, rather than let Darwin's principles work its magic, H&S want to wrap everything in bubble-wrap.

M

[Evanivitch]

camel_landy said:

Whilst car safety has significantly improved, road safety education has significantly dropped. However, rather than let Darwin's principles work its magic, H&S want to wrap everything in bubble-wrap.

M

The death of children as a result of "significant drops" in road safety education decisions made by adults is "magic"?

Classy.

[RDMcG]

Won’t be visiting Wales any time soon though there may be some bargain performance cars for sale

[heebeegeetee]

RDMcG said:

Won’t be visiting Wales any time soon though there may be some bargain performance cars for sale

Been in a couple of times now, marshalling on rallies inc 2 days of RAC. Haven't seen any anarchy or havoc due to 20s yet. Wales is still a great place to drive, slowing down duly for towns and villages doesn't bother me. The RAC still took place fine. The other rally I did, the Cambrian, was severely disrupted because a taxi driver killed himself on the A55. That did indeed case mayhem, as severe crashes in rural areas with consequential road closures often does.

[bigothunter]

heebeegeetee said:

RDMcG said:

Won’t be visiting Wales any time soon though there may be some bargain performance cars for sale

Been in a couple of times now, marshalling on rallies inc 2 days of RAC. Haven't seen any anarchy or havoc due to 20s yet. Wales is still a great place to drive, slowing down duly for towns and villages doesn't bother me. The RAC still took place fine. The other rally I did, the Cambrian, was severely disrupted because a taxi driver killed himself on the A55. That did indeed case mayhem, as severe crashes in rural areas with consequential road closures often does.

Welsh support for motorsport has always been strong from stage rallying to bike enduros. I've competed over Epynt which is a fabulous motorsport location. Some great driving roads in the less populated areas. I had great fun when we visited in April.

But there's another side to Wales. Lee Waters intends to consider speed limits on other roads beyond 20 zones. "We need to review [speed limits] in line with the Wales transport strategy," he said. We all know what that means.

Nia Griffith, Labour MP for Llanelli proposed slashing all limits overnight by applying km/h to previous mph limits. So towns became 19 mph, single carriageways 37 mph and dual carriageways 43 mph. She was tolerant of motorway limit 'increasing' to 80 but only in km/h which is 50 mph. Her proposal was applauded by LibDem MP, Lynn Featherstone.

We should never forget the Mad Mullah, Richard Brunstrom.

Finally at the recent Labour Conference, Angela Rayner praised the Senedd for setting a blueprint for UK. My reaction was heaven help us.


Speed limit policy originating from Wales could spread like a contagion, not only across the whole Welsh network but across all UK. Those wonderful Welsh driving roads could be lost forever. This needs watching very closely.

[Evanivitch]

bigothunter said:

Welsh support for motorsport has always been strong from stage rallying to bike enduros. I've competed over Epynt which is a fabulous motorsport location. Some great driving roads in the less populated areas. I had great fun when we visited in April.

Isn't most of Epynt closed Ministry of Defence roads?

bigothunter said:

Those wonderful Welsh driving roads could be lost forever. This needs watching very closely.

That has been happening for a decade already, with Black Mountain and Evo Triangle both being limited and policed. The Bwlch and Rhigos is still NSL.

[heebeegeetee]

bigothunter said:

Welsh support for motorsport has always been strong from stage rallying to bike enduros. I've competed over Epynt which is a fabulous motorsport location. Some great driving roads in the less populated areas. I had great fun when we visited in April.

But there's another side to Wales. Lee Waters intends to consider speed limits on other roads beyond 20 zones. "We need to review [speed limits] in line with the Wales transport strategy," he said. We all know what that means.

Nia Griffith, Labour MP for Llanelli proposed slashing all limits overnight by applying km/h to previous mph limits. So towns became 19 mph, single carriageways 37 mph and dual carriageways 43 mph. She was tolerant of motorway limit 'increasing' to 80 but only in km/h which is 50 mph. Her proposal was applauded by LibDem MP, Lynn Featherstone.

We should never forget the Mad Mullah, Richard Brunstrom.

Finally at the recent Labour Conference, Angela Rayner praised the Senedd for setting a blueprint for UK. My reaction was heaven help us.


Speed limit policy originating from Wales could spread like a contagion, not only across the whole Welsh network but across all UK. Those wonderful Welsh driving roads could be lost forever. This needs watching very closely.

The roads won't be lost, but we might lose the freedom to use them as our own personal race track.

[bigothunter]

Evanivitch said:

bigothunter said:

Welsh support for motorsport has always been strong from stage rallying to bike enduros. I've competed over Epynt which is a fabulous motorsport location. Some great driving roads in the less populated areas. I had great fun when we visited in April.

Isn't most of Epynt closed Ministry of Defence roads?

Epynt military roads have been famous rally stages over many years. Rallying was prohibited for a while but returned in recent years. Great to get Epynt back again

Evanivitch said:

bigothunter said:

Those wonderful Welsh driving roads could be lost forever. This needs watching very closely.

That has been happening for a decade already, with Black Mountain and Evo Triangle both being limited and policed. The Bwlch and Rhigos is still NSL.

We need to stop the rot before they are all gone

[nordboy]

Evanivitch said:

That has been happening for a decade already, with Black Mountain and Evo Triangle both being limited and policed. The Bwlch and Rhigos is still NSL.

The Bwlch is, but the Rhigos is now 40mph for the majority of the road since the zip line place opened. It's only a NSL for the straight section from the zip world entrance to the Hirwaun Ind estate roundabout.