E Scooters soon to be allowed on UK roads?
Discussion
bigothunter said:
andburg said:
missing the point that ebikes have very similar batteries
Mersey Rail said:
E-bikes are regulated to higher standards, so the ban does not affect them.
There are hundreds of different models of cheap, but legal, Chinese e-bikes for sale on Amazon, EBay, online shops, etc
I could even build my own 15.5mph pedal assisted e-bike and it would be legal to ride on the road and take on public transport, even if I wired it really badly and used the cheapest and most unsafe batteries and cables known to man.
These e-bikes, whilst being perfectly legal and acceptable to public transport providers, are just as likely to catch fire as a badly made e-scooter is.
That’s why it doesn’t make any sense.
It’s like saying “you can’t take a yellow bike onto the train, but you can take a blue one”
Lord Marylebone said:
bigothunter said:
andburg said:
missing the point that ebikes have very similar batteries
Mersey Rail said:
E-bikes are regulated to higher standards, so the ban does not affect them.
There are hundreds of different models of cheap, but legal, Chinese e-bikes for sale on Amazon, EBay, online shops, etc
I could even build my own 15.5mph pedal assisted e-bike and it would be legal to ride on the road and take on public transport, even if I wired it really badly and used the cheapest and most unsafe batteries and cables known to man.
These e-bikes, whilst being perfectly legal and acceptable to public transport providers, are just as likely to catch fire as a badly made e-scooter is.
That’s why it doesn’t make any sense.
It’s like saying “you can’t take a yellow bike onto the train, but you can take a blue one”
The reality is a world market xiaomi or equivalent scooter likely share share the same type of cells/charging circuitry etc as a cheap mass market e-bike but with them packaged into a different shape. I dont know of anybody doing e-scooter conversion kits or turning a kick scooter into an escooter.
The kits/home brews are potentially far riskier than either. (colleague has a home made e-bike, the battery cover is made of cardboard and he uses it in the rain)
Lord Marylebone said:
bigothunter said:
andburg said:
missing the point that ebikes have very similar batteries
Mersey Rail said:
E-bikes are regulated to higher standards, so the ban does not affect them.
There are hundreds of different models of cheap, but legal, Chinese e-bikes for sale on Amazon, EBay, online shops, etc
I could even build my own 15.5mph pedal assisted e-bike and it would be legal to ride on the road and take on public transport, even if I wired it really badly and used the cheapest and most unsafe batteries and cables known to man.
These e-bikes, whilst being perfectly legal and acceptable to public transport providers, are just as likely to catch fire as a badly made e-scooter is.
That’s why it doesn’t make any sense.
It’s like saying “you can’t take a yellow bike onto the train, but you can take a blue one”
Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 14th March 17:40
andburg said:
Lord Marylebone said:
bigothunter said:
andburg said:
missing the point that ebikes have very similar batteries
Mersey Rail said:
E-bikes are regulated to higher standards, so the ban does not affect them.
There are hundreds of different models of cheap, but legal, Chinese e-bikes for sale on Amazon, EBay, online shops, etc
I could even build my own 15.5mph pedal assisted e-bike and it would be legal to ride on the road and take on public transport, even if I wired it really badly and used the cheapest and most unsafe batteries and cables known to man.
These e-bikes, whilst being perfectly legal and acceptable to public transport providers, are just as likely to catch fire as a badly made e-scooter is.
That’s why it doesn’t make any sense.
It’s like saying “you can’t take a yellow bike onto the train, but you can take a blue one”
The reality is a world market xiaomi or equivalent scooter likely share share the same type of cells/charging circuitry etc as a cheap mass market e-bike but with them packaged into a different shape. I dont know of anybody doing e-scooter conversion kits or turning a kick scooter into an escooter.
The kits/home brews are potentially far riskier than either. (colleague has a home made e-bike, the battery cover is made of cardboard and he uses it in the rain)
Graveworm said:
The counter point is that whilst you could the ones that have caught fire were not e-bikes. Even if it was an equal risk banning some reduces the risk. If you are going to chose, wouldn't it be better to ban those which are illegal to ride to and from the station?
Obviously currently on a sample size of one, the only such fire I know of was an e-scooter.However given the number of e-bikes and e-scooters on public transport, one e-scooter catching fire does more to prove how few catch fire, than I does to prove scooters catch fire more than bikes.
Especially as there are videos of e-bikes catching fire.
And issues in the past with tablets and mobile phones catching fire.
And people with lighters setting things in fire.
dhutch said:
Graveworm said:
The counter point is that whilst you could the ones that have caught fire were not e-bikes. Even if it was an equal risk banning some reduces the risk. If you are going to chose, wouldn't it be better to ban those which are illegal to ride to and from the station?
Obviously currently on a sample size of one, the only such fire I know of was an e-scooter.However given the number of e-bikes and e-scooters on public transport, one e-scooter catching fire does more to prove how few catch fire, than I does to prove scooters catch fire more than bikes.
Especially as there are videos of e-bikes catching fire.
And issues in the past with tablets and mobile phones catching fire.
And people with lighters setting things in fire.
Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 14th March 20:49
Graveworm said:
TFL and the LFB when they banned them claimed to have had "A number" of fires from e-scooters an e-unicycles so that implies more than one but I can't find the figures so as few as 2. It misses the point that fewer, is a lower risk is worth it if it's proportionate, and there is more justification to accept the risk and allow legal to ride cycles over illegal to ride scooters.
Zero is "a number". It's even a real number and a rational number.Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 14th March 20:49
But why would a train co allow people to carry 'illegal to ride' toys if it was seen to involve a risk to the travelling public?
Everyone would be down on them like a ton of bricks if they condoned these things and someone got burned.
Plus, these things are strongly correlated with anti-social tossers. I bet the train co's get complaints all the time.
Pedal cycles OTOH are a protected species and must be catered for, legally there is no distinction between pedal bikes and e-bikes.
OutInTheShed said:
Pedal cycles OTOH are a protected species and must be catered for, legally there is no distinction between pedal bikes and e-bikes.
try telling that to a 13 year old - or to a copper if you are 13.Legally one is a mechanically propelled vehicle, that is no longer classified as a motor vehicle. The other is neither. An e-scooter is both.
Paris moves to ban hired electric scooters from the streets.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/04/02/...
Interesting development, given the push to get people away from using fossil fuelled transport.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/04/02/...
Interesting development, given the push to get people away from using fossil fuelled transport.
Not surprising considering how inconsiderately they are left dumped on the pavements after use, 90% of respondents in favour of the ban as well is a massive percentage.
Hire scooters also aren't that green either when you consider the logistics behind charging them, each night a diesel van goes round collecting them then they are taken back to base to charge and then placed back on the streets in the designated bays for the next morning.
In related news the LFB have issued a warning on homebrew e-bike conversions.
Hire scooters also aren't that green either when you consider the logistics behind charging them, each night a diesel van goes round collecting them then they are taken back to base to charge and then placed back on the streets in the designated bays for the next morning.
In related news the LFB have issued a warning on homebrew e-bike conversions.
bbc article said:
"In 2023 we've been called to, on average, an e-bike or e-scooter fire once every two days," LFB said.
Conversion kits allow people to fix an electric motor to their bicycle, but some are sold without a battery.
This leads people to buy them separately, sometimes from a different, cheaper seller, the brigade said.
"Buying batteries second-hand means you may be buying a battery that is already damaged and a fire risk," it added.
"DIY installations can also lead to damage of the kit, increasing the chances of battery failure and the likelihood of a fire."
The brigade recommended that Londoners hired a professional to carry out the conversion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64464...
Conversion kits allow people to fix an electric motor to their bicycle, but some are sold without a battery.
This leads people to buy them separately, sometimes from a different, cheaper seller, the brigade said.
"Buying batteries second-hand means you may be buying a battery that is already damaged and a fire risk," it added.
"DIY installations can also lead to damage of the kit, increasing the chances of battery failure and the likelihood of a fire."
The brigade recommended that Londoners hired a professional to carry out the conversion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64464...
Edited by untakenname on Monday 3rd April 16:25
untakenname said:
Not surprising considering how inconsiderately they are left dumped on the pavements after use, 90% of respondents in favour of the ban as well is a massive percentage.
Wait until you hear about how cars are parked, and how they can't even be moved by anybody else 
untakenname said:
Hire scooters also aren't that green either when you consider the logistics behind charging them, each night a diesel van goes round collecting them then they are taken back to base to charge and then placed back on the streets in the designated bays for the next morning.
Pretty sure most of the UK schemes have a setup where anybody can charge them and get paid. Whether it's a diesel van or electric cargo bike is up to the person.untakenname said:
In related news the LFB have issued a warning on homebrew e-bike conversions.]
The problem here is very low quality bikes and conversion kits imported by people operating companies out of their spare room or garage. Border Force only seem to be interested in collecting the taxes due and not enforcing standards, and due to the gutting of Trading Standards there's virtually no enforcement on sales, and it's impossible to report people selling dangerous and illegal bikes and kits.untakenname said:
Not surprising considering how inconsiderately they are left dumped on the pavements after use
I think the sweet spot is having designated parking areas like in London. Went to Paris last summer and they were everywhere and on some of the narrower streets you had to walk in the road due to scooters on the 3ft wide pavement. 123DWA said:
untakenname said:
Not surprising considering how inconsiderately they are left dumped on the pavements after use
I think the sweet spot is having designated parking areas like in London. Went to Paris last summer and they were everywhere and on some of the narrower streets you had to walk in the road due to scooters on the 3ft wide pavement. MB140 said:
123DWA said:
untakenname said:
Not surprising considering how inconsiderately they are left dumped on the pavements after use
I think the sweet spot is having designated parking areas like in London. Went to Paris last summer and they were everywhere and on some of the narrower streets you had to walk in the road due to scooters on the 3ft wide pavement. Rome, because of their issues, are going back to rentals only, cutting the number of rental scooters, having ID plates, making them adults only and reducing the speed limits to 12.5mph (2.5mph in shared use areas). Your solution is end the trial, change the law and put the infrastructure in place as you have a hunch it will be fine here. Given how many places elsewhere are rowing back on e-scooters and the lack of demonstrable benefits, what is the case for change?
OutInTheShed said:
monthou said:
Graveworm said:
Rome, because of their issues, are going back to rentals only,
I'm struggling to find that story. Any chance of a link?monthou said:
I read that. It doesn't say anything about a ban on privately owned scooters.
Had a chat (email) with my Italian former colleague.Basically, most scooters in city centres are hire units.
The few privately owned ones are not seen to be causing the problems.
It's politically handy to blame everything on 'tourist scooters'.
There are some mixed messages about 'scooters being restricted to a few hire firms' in some areas, which may or may not mean private scooters are banned.
A lot (most?) of the private scooters are technically illegal anyway as they don't meet some standard or other.
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