SSS for Von - it's why your wrong!
Discussion
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
I've never met one person yet who comes to me for training & uses the mirrors enough for my requirements above. Not one.
And I bet you don't know why you demand so much mirror use.
What's the biggest single benefit Von?
Come on Von, I'd love an answer. It's interesting, I promise.
And I'll give you a clue. Why can't you teach driving in a classroom?
I demand it as part of a safe, systematic approach. I want them to be aware of their surroundings at all all times, so that they aren't pre-occupied with just one area that contains potential danger. A system based use of the mirrors, means that you won't ever be caught out from behind , it provides a consistency of approach that doesn't make you vulnerable as your driving plans are not based on what lays ahead alone. The system mirror use is a kind of muscle memory, so that even in the most stressful conditions you still do it to the required standards. Insufficient/Unsystematic mirror use is one of the regulars that drivers fail courses on. They believe they are using it enough & aren't comprimising safety, but in the scenarios they are placed, it soon becomes very evident that they aren't doing it enough & they are a risk to themselves & others as a result.
There will always be someone willing to or actually travel faster than you on the road & they may not even be a good driver. If they are infront of you they are less of a risk, than if they are behind.
All excellent, conventional, 'best practice' answers. But it's only a third of the truth.
You think you're 'training' but it's more like programming behaviour. If it REALLY was a knowledge based skill, you could teach it in a classroom. Obviously you can't - we all know that. We learn through practice and especially through repetition. That's the clue that we're programming subconscious behaviour.
As skills improve more and more of the process is handled by subconscious processes and ultimately the quality of a driver is defined by the level of development of the subconscious skills.
And now we return to the mirror. Demanding high levels of attention to the mirror and other tasks forces the subconscious to raise its game because less time is available for forwards observation. So much in Roadcraft increases the pressure on the subconscious and forces it to learn...
It learns to direct attention with great precision and economy. That's the true hallmark of the great drivers you're creating.
8Pack said:
What has interveaned here in Blighty has been the "anti-car" brigade" ........... Numpties now feel...."I am doing 70 mph so "I" am king and NO-ONE must pass me for THEY are LAWBREAKERS!!! and therefore "I" do NOT need to look behind!!!
Pigeon said:
smeggy said:
vonhosen said:
smeggy said:
Would you agree this aspect of crap driving is fuelled by the ‘speed kills’ mantra?
No, It's fueled by ignornace & people's silly assertiveness with regards to what they perceive as "their" piece of road or rights. People tend to perceive "their" rights as more important than others (that's not just tied to driving, so it's got little to do with speed kills (which I am not a follower of anyway)).
Im afraid you are wrong (or at least not wholly correct). I personally have conversed with drivers who, amongst other much more shocking vigilante activities, admit to remaining in the right hand lane at/below speed limit such that no-one else can pass simply because “its the law” – and they are proud of it.
I've read their indignant letters in the local paper saying that they shouldn't be prosecuted for it and the police should be grateful to them for stopping people exceeding the limit. There were quite a lot of them, and this was something like 15 years ago, before the speed obsession really got off the ground and when there were trafpol around who would pull them for it. I would suspect that the attitude is more widespread now.
Even for all his mirror checking, it appears Von has a blind spot
safespeed said:
Demanding high levels of attention to the mirror and other tasks forces the subconscious to raise its game because less time is available for forwards observation. So much in Roadcraft increases the pressure on the subconscious and forces it to learn...
It learns to direct attention with great precision and economy. That's the true hallmark of the great drivers you're creating.
It learns to direct attention with great precision and economy. That's the true hallmark of the great drivers you're creating.
You seem to be saying that the mirror is being used as a way to increase the drivers' workload to teach them to maintain their forward observation with less attention, is that what you mean? It may be true (I have no idea), but it doesn't feel entirely satisfactory as an answer.
I would like to think that drivers are being taught to apportion their attention according to the hazards around them. On a motorway it is usually very important to know what's happening beside and behind you, in some cases it may even be more important than knowing what's happening in front. In other situations it may be that the vast majority of hazards are in front of you and what is behind you is relatively unimportant. So the attention 'focus' needs to reflect the circumstances, and perhaps VH finds that people he teaches typically don't get this balance quite right in his opinion.
But just using the mirror as a way to 'waste a driver's time' to force them to learn to do more with less attention, seems likely to teach them to get this balance wrong which seems wrong to me.
GreenV8S said:
safespeed said:
Demanding high levels of attention to the mirror and other tasks forces the subconscious to raise its game because less time is available for forwards observation. So much in Roadcraft increases the pressure on the subconscious and forces it to learn...
It learns to direct attention with great precision and economy. That's the true hallmark of the great drivers you're creating.
It learns to direct attention with great precision and economy. That's the true hallmark of the great drivers you're creating.
You seem to be saying that the mirror is being used as a way to increase the drivers' workload to teach them to maintain their forward observation with less attention, is that what you mean? It may be true (I have no idea), but it doesn't feel entirely satisfactory as an answer.
I would like to think that drivers are being taught to apportion their attention according to the hazards around them. On a motorway it is usually very important to know what's happening beside and behind you, in some cases it may even be more important than knowing what's happening in front. In other situations it may be that the vast majority of hazards are in front of you and what is behind you is relatively unimportant. So the attention 'focus' needs to reflect the circumstances, and perhaps VH finds that people he teaches typically don't get this balance quite right in his opinion.
But just using the mirror as a way to 'waste a driver's time' to force them to learn to do more with less attention, seems likely to teach them to get this balance wrong which seems wrong to me.
I think you're right in your general assessment, but I think the 'balance of importances' is wrong (that may be my fault). It certainly isn't true that heavy use of the mirrors is just a deliberate waste of time. But it certainly is true that skilled trainers put a great deal of load on drivers as part of the training process. Mirror use is one worthy component of the load.
I recently had the great pleasure of meeting a trainer from the Scottish Police College. He gave a demonstration drive and was constantly checking all three mirrors (And saying so!). I think it would have 'closer to optimal' if he'd skipped some of the nearside mirror checks in a rural location with nothing at all behind.
Edited by safespeed on Saturday 24th June 13:56
Edited by safespeed on Saturday 24th June 13:57
vonhosen said:
Mad Moggie said:
vonhosen said:
8Pack said:
vonhosen said:
smeggy said:
vonhosen subsequently said:
All drivers should Mirror/shoulder check before they manoeuvre, at whatever speed they travel at.
Without doubt, but what if they’re not manoeuvring, like as previously described, remaining in lane n deliberately ignorant of events behind?
They should still be checking periodically in the mirror, because there are hazards there as well as in front of you.
Me personally I check the mirrors,
1) BEFORE every position change (however small).
2) BEFORE speed changes.
3) When I see actual or potential hazards ahead.
4) Frequently in the absence of above (but it will rarely get to stage 4, because of the regularity of 1-3).
Vanhosen,....The "Europeans" could teach you Oh so much!......
To be honest with you....for me, towing a caravan in europe is also a pain (2 lanes)..or, as it is here!(3 lanes)
Hey YOU!....try towing a trailer on the motorway in blighty before you respond!!...
.... Their observance of "approaching traffic" is far supierior to our blind.....(I'm a safe 60-70mph motorway driver) engage blinkered mode!
VanHosen, our driving skills have been diminished over the years since the 70mph imposition, and the europeans realise that WE, (the British) are NOT as good a drivers as they...and are thinking about special "limits" for we UK drivers because we are NOT used to them!!!!........
Yet MOST european drivers I've seen travel between 80 and 100 mph...........on TWO ....lanes!
Try towing a trailer ?
I do tow a trailer in the UK reglarly , I also drive LGV1's & PCV's.
Blinkered driving (not using your mirrors) has nothing to do with speed, it's just another manifestation of poor driving standards. I've never met one person yet who comes to me for training & uses the mirrors enough for my requirements above. Not one.
On discussions with regards to mirrors on these forums I have the allegation thrown at me that what I require is too much mirror use (though I disagree because it's use is entirely system derived, it being necessary to stimulae within that system for consistency)....................so your remark that the European's could teach me oh so much about it (because it's not used enough) is very amusing
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 24th June 10:10
Have to say it - if you drove with Wildy - you may meet the woman of your dreams.
She trained in Germany - they are very precise in use of mirrors and you just do not pass their test if you do not follow their rather prescribed style.
Wildy has never lost that German "polish" in her driving style and she can tell me at any one time what is behind her .. to the sides and how distant at any one time.
I think you might find entire family are very similar - as they all trained in Germany.
In fact .. could be what 8packs is trying to point out
Don't be so insular
I've seen quite a bit of poor "Polish" driving actually
Liebchen.. we are talking "polish" as in "Turtle Wax - extra show room shine" und that glitz which you only achieve with white vinegar (ist the toppest stuff for glass
) which are about "sparkle" .. und I got a gold star when I did that RoSPA doo-dah - just to preen my whiskers! But ist my cousin BiB who ist toppest driver I've been out with. As passenger - ist not so good.. ist like being on a driving test 
He ist worse than my Papa 
Ach.. und by the way.. alll my Swiss brothers und cousins ...they have driven tanks
und army trucks as Switzerland has conscription. safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
I've never met one person yet who comes to me for training & uses the mirrors enough for my requirements above. Not one.
And I bet you don't know why you demand so much mirror use.
What's the biggest single benefit Von?
Come on Von, I'd love an answer. It's interesting, I promise.
And I'll give you a clue. Why can't you teach driving in a classroom?
I demand it as part of a safe, systematic approach. I want them to be aware of their surroundings at all all times, so that they aren't pre-occupied with just one area that contains potential danger. A system based use of the mirrors, means that you won't ever be caught out from behind , it provides a consistency of approach that doesn't make you vulnerable as your driving plans are not based on what lays ahead alone. The system mirror use is a kind of muscle memory, so that even in the most stressful conditions you still do it to the required standards. Insufficient/Unsystematic mirror use is one of the regulars that drivers fail courses on. They believe they are using it enough & aren't comprimising safety, but in the scenarios they are placed, it soon becomes very evident that they aren't doing it enough & they are a risk to themselves & others as a result.
There will always be someone willing to or actually travel faster than you on the road & they may not even be a good driver. If they are infront of you they are less of a risk, than if they are behind.
All excellent, conventional, 'best practice' answers. But it's only a third of the truth.
You think you're 'training' but it's more like programming behaviour. If it REALLY was a knowledge based skill, you could teach it in a classroom. Obviously you can't - we all know that. We learn through practice and especially through repetition. That's the clue that we're programming subconscious behaviour.
As skills improve more and more of the process is handled by subconscious processes and ultimately the quality of a driver is defined by the level of development of the subconscious skills.
And now we return to the mirror. Demanding high levels of attention to the mirror and other tasks forces the subconscious to raise its game because less time is available for forwards observation. So much in Roadcraft increases the pressure on the subconscious and forces it to learn...
It learns to direct attention with great precision and economy. That's the true hallmark of the great drivers you're creating.
Oh it's defintely prescriptive & it's also definitely conditioning. It's very much a case of you will do it this way with the mirrors. They can show individual flair elsewhere, but the mirror work has to be a systematic response. If it's not, then trouble will come in the end.
safespeed said:
...a trainer from the Scottish Police College... was constantly checking all three mirrors (And saying so!). I think it would have 'closer to optimal' if he'd skipped some of the nearside mirror checks in a rural location with nothing at all behind.
On the Ride Drive course I did it was suggested that I should work to make it a reflex that all my mirror checks included all three mirrors. I think this is more so that your conscious brain doesn't have to worry about which mirrors ought to be checked in the high-hazard, high-sensual-input areas of driving such as at roundabouts. It doesn't need to worry, because your subconscious makes you check all of them anyway.vonhosen said:
hanse cronje said:
mirror use - every ten seconds isn't it ??
Well that may be the way some do it.
Personally it's system based for me, which means that it's usually a lot more frequent than that.
Otherwise if you looked 5 seconds ago, but infact need it now, you are 5 seconds either side of when it's actually needed. Sometimes a hell of a lot can change in 10 seconds.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 24th June 22:32
Is there any scientific research on this? Its obviously a games theoretic optimisation. Cant be that dificult to analyse. Personally I would have thought the frequency would vary wildly depending on the prevailing conditions.
s2art said:
vonhosen said:
hanse cronje said:
mirror use - every ten seconds isn't it ??
Well that may be the way some do it.
Personally it's system based for me, which means that it's usually a lot more frequent than that.
Otherwise if you looked 5 seconds ago, but infact need it now, you are 5 seconds either side of when it's actually needed. Sometimes a hell of a lot can change in 10 seconds.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 24th June 22:32
Is there any scientific research on this? Its obviously a games theoretic optimisation. Cant be that dificult to analyse. Personally I would have thought the frequency would vary wildly depending on the prevailing conditions.
Like I said earlier. You will be expected to n/s or o/s mirror before ANY position change, you will expected to mirror before speed changes & mirror for hazards (actual or potential). Police drivers are being drilled for driving standards that aren't going to be required by members of the public though. Their mirror use must be a reflex action in the circumstances they are going to drive.
If you just think about one aspect, positioning, you tend to make adjustments to your position a lot more often than every ten seconds on it's own.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 24th June 23:08
V8 Archie said:
vonhosen said:
If you just think about one aspect, positioning, you tend to make adjustments to your position a lot more often than every ten seconds on it's own.
Really! You must have a very different driving style to me then.I'd hope so. (I wouldn't expect you to be doing what I have to on the road)
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 25th June 00:09
vonhosen said:
hanse cronje said:
mirror use - every ten seconds isn't it ??
Well that may be the way some do it.
Personally it's system based for me, which means that it's usually a lot more frequent than that.
Otherwise if you looked 5 seconds ago, but infact need it now, you are 5 seconds either side of when it's actually needed. Sometimes a hell of a lot can change in 10 seconds.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 24th June 22:32
On a purely time interval basis I would have thought mirror checks should be more frequent than every ten seconds. In busy traffic conditions that is quite a long time, though on a quiet country road that sort of interval might be adequate.
I must admit my frequency of mirror checks is not as good as it should be. There could be many occasions when a passenger might suddenly cover the mirror and ask me what is behind, and I wouldn't know. What seems to happen is that I make mirror checks at particular times, like speed and position changes, so in that respect I don't think much is likely to go wrong.
It must be nice to be like my friend over t'other side who ist very good at this mirror checking business und never gets caught out!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
vonhosen said:
Oh it's defintely prescriptive & it's also definitely conditioning. It's very much a case of you will do it this way with the mirrors. They can show individual flair elsewhere, but the mirror work has to be a systematic response. If it's not, then trouble will come in the end.
Bear in mind this is descriptive of a teaching system that takes very ordinary drivers for a amazingly short period of time and gets them to be safe at high speed and able to deal with all situations they might come across in their work sytematically.
There's no luxury of thinking through what is right and wrong in every manouevre. Little time for slow development of the enthusiast's skills, repeated practice drives. These are people getting job training who aren't necesarily enthusiasts.
Drilling, conditioning and inflexibility (strict systematic approach is a nicer set of words) are part of this method. And rightly so.
7db said:
vonhosen said:
Oh it's defintely prescriptive & it's also definitely conditioning. It's very much a case of you will do it this way with the mirrors. They can show individual flair elsewhere, but the mirror work has to be a systematic response. If it's not, then trouble will come in the end.
Bear in mind this is descriptive of a teaching system that takes very ordinary drivers for a amazingly short period of time and gets them to be safe at high speed and able to deal with all situations they might come across in their work sytematically.
There's no luxury of thinking through what is right and wrong in every manouevre. Little time for slow development of the enthusiast's skills, repeated practice drives. These are people getting job training who aren't necesarily enthusiasts.
Drilling, conditioning and inflexibility (strict systematic approach is a nicer set of words) are part of this method. And rightly so.
Yes, it's not the only way.
It's what is necessary for Police drivers in their particular circumstances. I wouldn't say that the system itself is inflexible, just that with certain criteria there is less fexibility or room for interpretation than others.
7db said:
vonhosen said:
Oh it's defintely prescriptive & it's also definitely conditioning. It's very much a case of you will do it this way with the mirrors. They can show individual flair elsewhere, but the mirror work has to be a systematic response. If it's not, then trouble will come in the end.
Bear in mind this is descriptive of a teaching system that takes very ordinary drivers for a amazingly short period of time and gets them to be safe at high speed and able to deal with all situations they might come across in their work sytematically.
There's no luxury of thinking through what is right and wrong in every manouevre. Little time for slow development of the enthusiast's skills, repeated practice drives. These are people getting job training who aren't necesarily enthusiasts.
Drilling, conditioning and inflexibility (strict systematic approach is a nicer set of words) are part of this method. And rightly so.
Yes, but I'm forever observing that most of the trainers and advocates of the whole training system don't understand why. They don't appreciate that they are programming subtle subconscious mental processes.
vonhosen said:
Yes, it's not the only way.
It's what is necessary for Police drivers in their particular circumstances. I wouldn't say that the system itself is inflexible, just that with certain criteria there is less fexibility or room for interpretation than others.
It's what is necessary for Police drivers in their particular circumstances. I wouldn't say that the system itself is inflexible, just that with certain criteria there is less fexibility or room for interpretation than others.
Yes very much so. Fair comment. Perhaps I should say that the Police application of the system is necessarily fairly inflexible. But VH you know where I'm coming from on the artisan debate anyway.
safespeed said:
7db said:
vonhosen said:
Oh it's defintely prescriptive & it's also definitely conditioning. It's very much a case of you will do it this way with the mirrors. They can show individual flair elsewhere, but the mirror work has to be a systematic response. If it's not, then trouble will come in the end.
Bear in mind this is descriptive of a teaching system that takes very ordinary drivers for a amazingly short period of time and gets them to be safe at high speed and able to deal with all situations they might come across in their work sytematically.
There's no luxury of thinking through what is right and wrong in every manouevre. Little time for slow development of the enthusiast's skills, repeated practice drives. These are people getting job training who aren't necesarily enthusiasts.
Drilling, conditioning and inflexibility (strict systematic approach is a nicer set of words) are part of this method. And rightly so.
Yes, but I'm forever observing that most of the trainers and advocates of the whole training system don't understand why. They don't appreciate that they are programming subtle subconscious mental processes.
The stages they go through are
Unconsciously Incompetent
Consciously Incompetent
Consciously Competent
Unconsciously (read Subconsciously) Competent
I've always been aware that what I am trying to achieve is a result of subconscious competence in a systematic approach.
You are filling them with a databank of experiences & drilling them in a system to deal safely with what can reasonably be expected to happen on the road (Those experiences & that reasonable expectation, being beyond their normal experience & what they could be expected to ever achieve through a normal driving life.)
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 25th June 10:59
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff