Priorities Right?

[autismuk]

Streetcop said:

Yes...it's all a bit crazy.... The fixed penalty for the shoplifting...is an idea to free up police time..ie: a couple of hours processing time for a jar of coffee... As for the government...you know who to vote next time..."keep it blue..." Street

Street, I'm fascinated as to how this takes a "couple of hours processing time".

It's an interesting viewpoint, an FPN. If you shoplift expensive things you may make a profit

[swilly]

Flat in Fifth said:

Mind you, re the hunting ban. As I understand it, HRH Prince Charles has said he intends to continue hunting. What will the constitutional implication be, if any, if he continues hunting when he is Monarch? Just wondered

Get his head chopped orf most likely just like Charley 1st.

[TripleS]

rsvmille said:

Gentlemen I have just read this thread and I am now depressed. What a state we live in. It realy is opressive.

Oh there's plenty one could be depressed about, that's for sure, but at least we have some good comedians here and I, for one, very much appreciate that as a counterbalance.

I still think it is right to that we should discuss the more sober topics though, and who knows, we might be able to help change things for the better. If you don't own up to what concerns you there is not much chance of an improvement.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Cooperman]

autismuk said:

Streetcop said: Yes...it's all a bit crazy.... The fixed penalty for the shoplifting...is an idea to free up police time..ie: a couple of hours processing time for a jar of coffee... As for the government...you know who to vote next time..."keep it blue..." Street Street, I'm fascinated as to how this takes a "couple of hours processing time". It's an interesting viewpoint, an FPN. If you shoplift expensive things you may make a profit

If only we could get back to calling crimes by their proper names, then applying the proper sentences:

Mugging = Robbery with Violence
Shoplifting = Robbery or Theft
Joy Riding = Car Theft
Aggrevated Burglary = Robbery with Violence
Serious Assalt = GBH With Intent

Now, 50 years ago all the above would have earned a prison sentence, usually known as 'Hard Labour', not some soft supervision order or community service. That's not lounging around in a cell watching TV or reading, it's breaking rocks on some open and cold moor. Those who came out did not want to go back in - ever wonder why. Because it was bloody unpleasant inside, that's why!
There is only one way to reduce crime and that is to make it very unpleasant when you get caught and to make it very likely that you will get caught. Policemen hiding in Talivans or chasing after huntsmen won't make it likely at all.
Of course, to decriminilise some acts of theft will make the crime figures look better and the Chief Constables and their 'friends' in the Home Office/Gov't will say how well the've done. It will also leave more space in the prisons for disqualified drivers who got 'pinged' at slightly over the limit a few times and had no option but to keep on driving in order to pay the mortgage and feed their kids, and for huntsmen who continue to hunt after this ludicrous and unnecessary ban takes force.
The attitude seems to be; 'Let's feel sorry for the violent criminals who didn't mean any real harm, but of course we can't have people ignoring politically motivated laws, now can we. They must be very severely punished'.
Well, stuff it, and stuff any members of the police service (mustn't call it a police force now) who act in support of this politically motivated legal system.
Policing is by consent, or at least it used to be, but the consent to police political laws is just not there and it must be resisted. The police officers and the public must become friends and allies again, or has political law driven such a huge wedge in already - I do hope not. Come on, BiB's, get onto your federation about all this.
Sorry to go on so. Maybe I'm becoming an anarchist in my old age. Tell me everything is wonderful and all will be right in the real England I still love.

[Streetcop]

autismuk said:

Street, I'm fascinated as to how this takes a "couple of hours processing time".

My record for dealing with a shoplifter from start to finish is 55 minutes....

Basically it's this;

Arrive at scene...ascertain what's happened in the hearing and presence of the shoplifter...

Arrest shoplifter and take to custody suite at Police Station.

Book prisoner in at custody..sieze his property (ie: wristwatch, wallet, jewellery etc..

Return to scene of crime and obtain statement from store detective/shop keeper (Some store detectives will do their own statement and this saves time)

Return to custody...Interview prisoner (may be delayed if prisoner wants a solicitor present).. Interview can last anything from 10 mins to a hour (depending on how complicated the job is)

Write up the charges, complete fingerprint forms..

Charge suspect then fingerprint him, obtain mouth swab DNA, take photograph..

Bail the suspect to a court and then see him from the police station..

Then complete the file for court. Sheet 1; all details of prisoner and yourself. Sheet 2; copy of charge; sheet 3; summary of offence and incident, sheet 4; confidential info from me to CPS, sheet 5; details of all witnesses, sheet 6; availabity of witnesses ie: future holiday dates and then a couple of other forms...

Then when all completed..the file is left to go to the file preparation unit the next day for final touches...

Hope that enlightens you all...

Street

[bluepolarbear]

jesusbuiltmycar said:

The way I see it is that you are severly deluded if you beleive a couple of posts on a forum is going to change anything - look at recent "Modern political history": The petrol protests are the single biggest anti-governement movement since the miners strike, and what did they acheive - absoultely fk all. The anti-war protests had the weight of over 100,000 and failed to change a thing The pro-hunt lot are also failing So where will your "insurrection" get you??? The way stats are manipulated the "true will and best interest of the people" requires more that a handful of posts on pistonheads

The only "proven" method ie that that has suceeded repeatly is WIDE SPREAD direct action (ie large % of population - not fringe groups).

Forget the ballot box it is con designed to make think you have a say. Differences between main stream parties are not great (generally have the same aims with minor variations on how to achieve). People are slowly waking up to this fact hence the lack of interest in politics. In reality the country and the laws you are forced to live by are decided by around 1000 people. Nothing has really changed for over a 1000 years

[BlackStuff]

Flat in Fifth said:

BlackStuff said: <some stuff whinging about Windermere speed limit> I'll bow to greater knowledge but I always understood that the ban on high speed motorboats and hence waterskiing was initiated because of a few individuals behaving in a manner that any person with half a brain cell could see was dangerous and anti social. And in a typically New Labour way they go totally over the top because of a minority whose attitude is "I'll behave how I want and let nobody be the judge."

As I understand it, the situation is roughly as follows:

From as far back as the Eighties there has been a movement to try and prevent power boats from using Windermere. The main proponents of this have been an organisation calling itself the "Friends of the Lake District", which seems to mainly comprise people who don't live here, but wish to see it kept as some sort of shrine, with the only pastime allowed being walking (ironically this being the one that does most damage, but lets not go there...).

Meanwhile the Lake District National Park Authority (an unelected Government funded Quango) also had a vested interest in banning power-boating (and lots of other stuff, but wait until they've got this one done and dusted before that comes to pass). Basically they want the Park to be bestowed with "World Heritage Status", and when they tried to do so one of the reasons for it's rejection was the fact that certain pastimes such as speed-boating were allowed here.

Quite why they are so set on this is difficult to tell, it won't bring in any perceptible extra revenue and no-one who actually live here seems to want it. It seems very much like it is an exercise in self-aggrandisement and Empire Building by those in charge of the LDNPA, in a breast-beating "look what we've achieved" sort of way.

So our group of glorified Lentilist Ramblers get in cahoots with the self-interested LDNPA, and between them they manage to get the whole thing to public enquiry, towards the end of the last Tory Administration. All sorts of arguments were put forward in support of a ban, including safety, noise, environmental impact etc.

The Inquiry considered all the evidence and concluded that there was no grounds for a ban. Power boating posed no significant safety risk, did not damage the environment, and caused no particular increase in noise. In short it concluded that as nuisances go it was a pretty insignificant one, and guaranteed to be very localised, so no ban. Unfortunately, in the summing up it was noted that there did seem to be some "incompatibilities between the various Lake Users".

Whether this remark was intended as a dig at the other "do-gooders" who had brought the whole thing up in the first place is unclear, but it was this vague sentence which was later seized upon by the incoming Labour Government who - it seems - "did a deal" with the LDNPA so's they could resurrect their wretched ban.

Now the only remaining problem was to get it past the locals, who by and large are have no problem with speed-boating, indeed it is clear it makes a pretty big contribution to the local economy.

The solution here was to pass the bill with a 5 year moratorium, ostensibly to allow all the businesses to "diversify", though quite how a boatyard diversifies has never quite been explained! Anyway, the upshot of the matter was that when this bill became law (in 2000) it had no actual effect, so therefore it was virtually impossible for those opposing it to rouse any support.

But now the 5 year moratorium has almost elapsed and there is plenty of public opposition. The problem is that of course now it's a hundred times harder to do anything about it - they aren't fighting to prevent a law from being passed, in order to prevent the ban they need to get a law repealed that was passed 5 years ago, a near impossible feat when you are ranged against a Government that so wholeheartedly supports restrictive, intolerant, "control freak" legislation such as this.

Meanwhile the LDNPA / FLD etc all lay smoke-screens about "quiet enjoyment" and "irresponsible lake users" etc, but this is a complete irrelevance. That argument was fought by them and they lost, the sole reason for the ban is an interpretation of what seemed to be one single throwaway phrase used by the chair of the public inquiry.

The idea of the ban being due to 1% of rowdy lake users is about as valid as closing the M6 because 1% of motorists drive recklessly along it.

<end of rant ....and breathe!>

[jesusbuiltmycar]

bluepolarbear said:

jesusbuiltmycar said: The way I see it is that you are severly deluded if you beleive a couple of posts on a forum is going to change anything - look at recent "Modern political history": The petrol protests are the single biggest anti-governement movement since the miners strike, and what did they acheive - absoultely fk all. The anti-war protests had the weight of over 100,000 and failed to change a thing The pro-hunt lot are also failing So where will your "insurrection" get you??? The way stats are manipulated the "true will and best interest of the people" requires more that a handful of posts on pistonheads The only "proven" method ie that that has suceeded repeatly is WIDE SPREAD direct action (ie large % of population - not fringe groups). Forget the ballot box it is con designed to make think you have a say. Differences between main stream parties are not great (generally have the same aims with minor variations on how to achieve). People are slowly waking up to this fact hence the lack of interest in politics. In reality the country and the laws you are forced to live by are decided by around 1000 people. Nothing has really changed for over a 1000 years

But when was the last time direct action actually worked???

The Anti-War protests.......FAILED

The petrol protests.........FAILED

And good ol maggie crushed the miners in th 80s

So I guess that direct action has achieved nothing in my lifetime, not to mention the fact that most of the methods of direct action are illegal.

What do you suggest aas a way of direct action?? Sending a few letters to the useless individual (oops I mean expense claiming MP) responsible for your area?

[Streetcop]

[BlackStuff]

jesusbuiltmycar said:

But when was the last time direct action actually worked??? The Anti-War protests.......FAILED The petrol protests.........FAILED And good ol maggie crushed the miners in th 80s So I guess that direct action has achieved nothing in my lifetime, not to mention the fact that most of the methods of direct action are illegal.

So you still pay Poll Tax then do you?

[jesusbuiltmycar]

Poll Tax, Council Tax - it is all the same thing really.....


.... Well actually the council tax is a lot more

Add to that all of the other taxes that have risen under the B.lair brigade and their "trust us, we are new labour, we won't put up taxes pledge"

So the poll tax was basically re-named to Council tax which at the end of the day means that the poll tax protests failed anyway

[Streetcop]

Absolutely..they've rebadged it..

Like the Metro becoming the Rover 100 for goodness sake..



Street

[BlackStuff]

jesusbuiltmycar said:

Poll Tax, Council Tax - it is all the same thing really.....

It emphatically is not!

Council Tax is the previous rating system under another name, in that it is based more or less entirely on the value of your property.

Poll Tax took property out of the equation so that local services were paid directly by the people that used them.

Poll Tax was a much fairer system (IMHO), but alas the great unwashed didn't like it and rebelled. Cue complete Government U-turn and the reinstatement of the previous system which was illogical and unfair, and which (as you point out) has now been hiked out of all recognition by Labour.

Make no mistake, Poll Tax was scrapped, and it was scrapped solely because of "direct action" by the populace.

[Streetcop]

Fiddlesticks.....

[jesusbuiltmycar]

It is still a tax though... and very unfair

As for this 'insurrection' thing what is going to be achieved??

We already have the ABD along with the more traditional motoring organisations which critisise the scameras and the way motorists are targetted for tax. Unfortunately they do not have/get enough publicity - probably because the government has the media in it's pocket.

Look at the latest claims by 'the b.liar (sun)' about their victory for the motorist with the change in points for speeding fines - propaganda for new labour - a magic wand - that has made the general public go back to watching eastenders.

Starting another 'PH insurrection' group is probably just a waste of time and effort. Surely it would be far better to support the existing organisations

[BlackStuff]

Streetcop said:

Fiddlesticks.....

I bow to the superior logic of your argument...

[TripleS]

Streetcop said:

Fiddlesticks.....

No Gary, it's not fiddlesticks.

The Community Charge (Poll Tax to its opponents) was intended to make individuals contribute towards the services they use.

Council Tax is much more akin to the old property based rating system.

It is people that require services and they, within reason, should pay for what they use. Buildings do not require social services etc.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Flat in Fifth]

BlackStuff said:

a lot of enlightening stuff about the Windermere situation

Thanks for that!

So the sound-bites about reckless waterskiers stuck and the background agenda never got a hearing it seems.

And they introduce legislation with a delay in the hope that when it cmes into effect, people will have forgot who introduced it or maybe they'll be sitting on their vast, inflation proof pension.

Typical. Where have we heard that before?

[BlackStuff]

Flat in Fifth said:

So the sound-bites about reckless waterskiers stuck and the background agenda never got a hearing it seems.

That's about the size of it. Water ski-ing is actually very safe - far safer than (say) riding a motorbike round the lake by road at the same speed! Yes there have been accidents down the years but they are very rare compared to the number of users. The inquiry came to just this conclusion - it wasn't a valid reason for a ban.

Flat in Fifth said:

And they introduce legislation with a delay in the hope that when it cmes into effect, people will have forgot who introduced it or maybe they'll be sitting on their vast, inflation proof pension.

I think they actually did it this way so that there would be little opposition at the time the law was passed, and it worked a treat for them!

Flat in Fifth said:

Typical. Where have we heard that before?

What worries me is where we'll hear it again! The same lot are already well on the way to a complete blanket ban on off-road driving in the National Park, basically getting ALL the miles of green lanes and unsurfaced roads reclassified as footpaths. My suspicions are that this will be followed by bans on mountain biking, rallying, rock-climbing, then wind-surfing and possibly even sailing. If this sounds crazy remember that it is only about ten years ago that they tried to push through a "Traffic Management Initiative" which would have closed about 70% of Lake District Roads to motorised traffic, including roads like Hardknott and Wrynose Passes etc.

Make no mistake, these people are ardent extremists, and they need to be stopped! Here's a good starting point... www.waf.uk.com/


>> Edited by BlackStuff on Wednesday 22 September 11:50

[Cooperman]

Roll on the revolution, Comrades!