Noise limit for road cars

[mel]

An actual numeric stated limit simply can not be introduced and enforced as part of the MoT, for the simple fact of the way acoustics behave. You would need to have a large empty purpose made area specifically for noise testing, it would need to have a standard floor covering (i.e tarmac, concrete or grass) and be free of all obstructions for several hundred metres in all directions from the tested vehicle. Otherwise any results are worthless as noise resonates off of walls, floors, people and other objects. You could realistically have a scenario when a car would fail a noise test on a cold day when the garage has the roller shutter down, but pass on a warm day when it's up, or pass at a big open floorpan style garage but fail at a smaller one using the same equipment. For those reasons it just can not and will not happen. (they've been trying for bikes for years)

The best that can be hoped for is a tightening on the tester "discretion" as to what is excessively noisey, this would be in the same way that they fail for example indicator bulbs that have had the orange lacquer flake off for not being "orange enough" no gargae has an "orangeness testing meter" it's down to the testers discretion.

[herewego]

streaky said:

Well, no older Tiv was ever standard (in anything).

I very much doubt any Tiv built since 1976 met the relevant EU noise standards ... I doubt that any Ferrari has (but the Italians pay little attention to EU regulations, unless they made money by them).

"Factory made" exhaust systems for cars older than 20 years must be as rare as hen's teeth, so most cars of that vintage and older (and many that are younger) will be fitted with a "non-standard" exhaust.

The law is given in Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 2329 - The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 1996.

Streaky

Is it possible that TVR were subject to SVA rather than EU regs due to the low production numbers?

IRRC Ferrari are one of the few that are allowed a little higher than 74, but I don’t know what they are allowed. They probably like customers to think they are louder than allowed so they can imagine themselves cocking a snook at the authorities.

It’s no problem having a non standard exhaust as long as it is not louder than the original.

[bigbadbikercats]

mel said:

An actual numeric stated limit simply can not be introduced and enforced as part of the MoT...

The best that can be hoped for is a tightening on the tester "discretion" as to what is excessively noisey...

Most likely we'll be looking at the same sort of regulation we already have for 'bike exhausts, i.e. exhaust systems and silencers offered for road use will need to be homologated and marked accordingly and if you present a vehicle for MoT (or a nice man in a stripy car with lights on the top thinks you're being a bit lairy) without the requisite magic runes present on the exhaust you're busted. It's arguable exactly how effective this sort of legislation has been for 'bikes but it does provide a convenient way to slap the more blatant offenders without recourse to noise meters, complicated test procedures, and technical argument as to the validity of any feasible roadside or MoT time test.

I'm in two minds as to whether this would a good or a bad thing. I'm not generally a big fan of this sort of thing as it all too often ends up going far beyond the good intentions of those who put it into play, on the other hand there are some spectacularly obnoxious cars around in my area with spectacularly obnoxious owners and it would be nice if there was a neat, tidy, convenient way of persuading the owners of the error of their ways. It wouldn't necessarily spoil everyone's fun though, certainly with bikes, unless you're unlucky enough to get caught up in a "random" (Hah!) roadside check (as I did a few years back) you're unlikely to fall foul of the legislation unless you first fail the attitude test by either making a persistent nuisance of yourself, hanging out in a group with people who make a persistent nuisance of themselves, or making your friendly local MoT tester think you're the sort of person who's likely to make a nuisance of yourself. I was able to run a couple of bikes (a Triumph Daytona 900 and one of the new Hinkley built Triumph Bonnevilles) on exhausts conspicuously marked as "for off road competition use only" for about 6 years without any problem other than the aforementioned roadside check, which, to be quite honest was largely self-inflicted as I was aware that the area I was in had been earmarked for robust enforcement measures against EvilBikeSkum...

--
JG

[Vipers]

Guam said:

Brett928S2 said:

Bibs_LEF said:

Only takes 15 mins of that to give you permanent hearing damage...........

Hi

Thats total tosh....where did you get that information ?

All the best Brett

Edited by Brett928S2 on Monday 26th May 13:18

Had to happen I am actually going to agree with Brett, I spent years stood by runways with fast jets blowing their exhausts without ear defenders and have NO hearing damage (not to mention the years in the seventies in front of LOUD loudspeakers at the Discos

Can it happen yep, is it likely to happen from a car exhaust, not hardly



Cheers

Agree all you like, have a google and digest it. Some smoke 100 fags a day and dont get any illness from it, but some do. Noise induced hearing loss is well proven and documented. As far as your hearing goes, you probably wouldnt know you had damage until you had a hearing test. I thought I was fine until I had one. Then I realised when my cat cried downstairs, my wife could hear it, I couldnt, coz I have slight high frequency loss. Be warned, it isnt tosh. A single exposure to a high enough noise WILL DAMAGE YOUR HEARING. and I might just add that hearing loss due to what they call "Noise Induced Hearing Loss", cannot be corrected by hearing aids, once its gone, its gone................

Thats why I do have an inward laugh when these little people go past in their little cars with mega watts of ghetto blaster vibating their windows....

P.S. WHY DO RACING DRIVERS WEAR EAR PLUGS, TO KEEP THEIR EARS WARM?

I am only stating fact by the way, not trying to be smart. (Not that you implied).



P.P.S. Boring I know, but try this one:-

http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/noise.asp

Edited by Vipers on Tuesday 27th May 13:10

[MaximumJed]

bigbadbikercats said:

mel said:

An actual numeric stated limit simply can not be introduced and enforced as part of the MoT...

The best that can be hoped for is a tightening on the tester "discretion" as to what is excessively noisey...

Most likely we'll be looking at the same sort of regulation we already have for 'bike exhausts, i.e. exhaust systems and silencers offered for road use will need to be homologated and marked accordingly and if you present a vehicle for MoT (or a nice man in a stripy car with lights on the top thinks you're being a bit lairy) without the requisite magic runes present on the exhaust you're busted. It's arguable exactly how effective this sort of legislation has been for 'bikes but it does provide a convenient way to slap the more blatant offenders without recourse to noise meters, complicated test procedures, and technical argument as to the validity of any feasible roadside or MoT time test.

I'm in two minds as to whether this would a good or a bad thing. I'm not generally a big fan of this sort of thing as it all too often ends up going far beyond the good intentions of those who put it into play, on the other hand there are some spectacularly obnoxious cars around in my area with spectacularly obnoxious owners and it would be nice if there was a neat, tidy, convenient way of persuading the owners of the error of their ways. It wouldn't necessarily spoil everyone's fun though, certainly with bikes, unless you're unlucky enough to get caught up in a "random" (Hah!) roadside check (as I did a few years back) you're unlikely to fall foul of the legislation unless you first fail the attitude test by either making a persistent nuisance of yourself, hanging out in a group with people who make a persistent nuisance of themselves, or making your friendly local MoT tester think you're the sort of person who's likely to make a nuisance of yourself. I was able to run a couple of bikes (a Triumph Daytona 900 and one of the new Hinkley built Triumph Bonnevilles) on exhausts conspicuously marked as "for off road competition use only" for about 6 years without any problem other than the aforementioned roadside check, which, to be quite honest was largely self-inflicted as I was aware that the area I was in had been earmarked for robust enforcement measures against EvilBikeSkum...

--
JG

I thought that this rule had been changed recently, instead of the exhaust having to have a kite mark etc, as long as it isn't specifically marked as not road legal, then you can use it (still subject to officer discretion anyway). Certainly the exhaust on my bike has no markings, and after querying it with two MOT stations they said that as long as it was in decent condition, they couldn't fail it.

[herewego]

I think the police tend to focus on safety issues, speed, red lights, tyres etc. so the chances of being pulled for noise are slim unless someone has put in a complaint.

[Vipers]

Guam said:

Thats why I qualified what I said at the end Yes it can happen (as can anything) but from a single exposure over 15 minutes from a car exhaust (not likely) As with all things anything and Everything is possible, it was possible that my swimmers could have gotten nuked from the radars of The aircraft coming into land (never happened but was possible)

PS Can still hear a watch tick from across the room (and I was temporarilly deafened several times from loud noise over the years). I guess that means I would have heard the watch from across town before LOL


Cheers

Well I am glad your hearing appears to be in nick, more than I can say for mine, but like they say, I knew someone who jumped out of a plane, and his parachute didnt open, but he survived, but they dont recommend it. Same as they dont recommend you expose yourself to excessive noise, but anyway, you get the gist of what I was saying.

But I still dont get these guys who want excessive exhaust as some of they do, to me, a throaty roar of a V8 sounds great. Mind seems to be the minority of would be boy racers I think, exeception of course our TVR enthuasist. Tks for the chat, good to bounce a few points back and fwds now and again on a lively level.

[bigbadbikercats]

MaximumJed said:

bigbadbikercats said:

[

Most likely we'll be looking at the same sort of regulation we already have for 'bike exhausts, i.e. exhaust systems and silencers offered for road use will need to be homologated and marked accordingly and if you present a vehicle for MoT (or a nice man in a stripy car with lights on the top thinks you're being a bit lairy) without the requisite magic runes present on the exhaust you're busted.

I thought that this rule had been changed recently, instead of the exhaust having to have a kite mark etc, as long as it isn't specifically marked as not road legal, then you can use it (still subject to officer discretion anyway). Certainly the exhaust on my bike has no markings, and after querying it with two MOT stations they said that as long as it was in decent condition, they couldn't fail it.

Errr... You could be right. It's been a while since I've had to worry about this stuff as the current 2-wheeled fleet is either on standard pipes (Ducati Multistrada), too old to be affected ('76 Triumph T160 Trident), or so far from road legality that an MoT tester would die of laughter (Harris/Yamaha Supermono race bike)

--
JG

[HRG]

herewego said:

I think the police tend to focus on safety issues, speed, red lights, tyres etc. so the chances of being pulled for noise are slim unless someone has put in a complaint.

Had some round here while I was working on the Tiv. "Would you like to hear her"? says I. says the Fired her up complete with the Sports Exhaust Mod (read straight through apart from the cats) and it bought a hige grin to their faces

I think noise (and how you use it) is very subjective

[HRG]

Guam said:

HRG said:

herewego said:

I think the police tend to focus on safety issues, speed, red lights, tyres etc. so the chances of being pulled for noise are slim unless someone has put in a complaint.

Had some round here while I was working on the Tiv. "Would you like to hear her"? says I. says the Fired her up complete with the Sports Exhaust Mod (read straight through apart from the cats) and it bought a hige grin to their faces

I think noise (and how you use it) is very subjective

I think you are absolutley right on how you use it, one thing that has been barely touched upon is the acoustics of the surroundings through which the car is going, the same car that will sound fine on your drive or out in the country ,will cause someone offense when it it is driven down a narrow street at 5Am on a Sunday morning (due to the amplification effect). The opinion of a BIB may differ under the varying circs. I can see that an otherwise legal car could get you nailed at 5AM. Thats what makes "opinion" based enforcement so poor imho


Cheers

Narrow tunnel? 2AM?

[Burrow01]

From the Autosport Technical Forum...

Firing order will affect exhaust gas flow and thus peaks in different engine harmonic orders and also different frequencies. The human ear does not perceive equal loudness at each frequency, but is most sensitive at around 1kHz and drops off at increasing and decreasing frequencies. The human ear also perceives different harmonics differently when it is superpositioned on other harmonics or against background noise.

There are 3 main parameters that define engine-generated sound: harmonic order, frequency and sound pressure level. A doubling of SPL only amounts to 6 dB. Point is, qualitative expression of loudness can be influenced by other factors than SPL itself, meaning one might perceive a very different degree of loudness, but a sound meter may show objectively not to be the case.

Might be usefull at some point in the future....

[SVTRick]

stigmundfreud said:

theres loud but acceptable (large cc at 100db) then there is taking the piss (tiny cc at 100dB) then there is please fk off and take that anoyance away (100dB+)

To those with ridiculously loud exhausts I seriously hope they do start to clamp down as they are about as nice to listen to as my mother in law having sex. The noise is also dependant on the engine, an IL4 motorbike screaming at 100dB is annoying but a big v8 is a nice sound but any louder and its offensive.

You listen to your mother in law while she is having sex...

Anyway on subject .... 5.5ltr V8 with 131db at 1 metre (but the db meter maxed at 131db)

I have never had anyone wearing Ipod type ear phones step out in front of me.....

[streaky]

herewego said:

DVD’s reference reg 65 says:
(2) Exhaust systems and silencers shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and shall not after the date of manufacture be altered so as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases.

This means the exhaust must not be altered to a noise level above that when originally supplied. As I remember all vehicles when originally supplied meet European noise limits.

Are you not then breaking the law if your car is noisier than originally supplied?

My Wedge was the first 390SE modified by Chris Schirle to rear wishbone suspension. In doing so, he had to replace the twin-pipe exhaust with a single "sewer". This is a lot louder than the original system at the time of manufacture. Several months later, the modification made it on to later manufactured Wedges. I wonder how that would be viewed?

If they to introduce regulation over exhaust noise, I trust it will not be retrospective.

Streaky

[stigmundfreud]

streaky said:

herewego said:

DVD’s reference reg 65 says:
(2) Exhaust systems and silencers shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and shall not after the date of manufacture be altered so as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases.

This means the exhaust must not be altered to a noise level above that when originally supplied. As I remember all vehicles when originally supplied meet European noise limits.

Are you not then breaking the law if your car is noisier than originally supplied?

My Wedge was the first 390SE modified by Chris Schirle to rear wishbone suspension. In doing so, he had to replace the twin-pipe exhaust with a single "sewer". This is a lot louder than the original system at the time of manufacture. Several months later, the modification made it on to later manufactured Wedges. I wonder how that would be viewed?

If they to introduce regulation over exhaust noise, I trust it will not be retrospective.

Streaky

Well it doesnt ahve to be retrospective, the regulation has been there for years about 88dB pre 96 and 84dB since. Just the same as the co2 issue, its been recorded since 2001 so they can back date it

[mitch78]

Bibs_LEF said:

Ps it's not a corsa/saxo, it's on a very good looking high performance supercar!

No, it's on a very good looking high performance Lotus.

[davemac250]

stigmundfreud said:

streaky said:

herewego said:

DVD’s reference reg 65 says:
(2) Exhaust systems and silencers shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and shall not after the date of manufacture be altered so as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases.

This means the exhaust must not be altered to a noise level above that when originally supplied. As I remember all vehicles when originally supplied meet European noise limits.

Are you not then breaking the law if your car is noisier than originally supplied?

My Wedge was the first 390SE modified by Chris Schirle to rear wishbone suspension. In doing so, he had to replace the twin-pipe exhaust with a single "sewer". This is a lot louder than the original system at the time of manufacture. Several months later, the modification made it on to later manufactured Wedges. I wonder how that would be viewed?

If they to introduce regulation over exhaust noise, I trust it will not be retrospective.

Streaky

Well it doesnt ahve to be retrospective, the regulation has been there for years about 88dB pre 96 and 84dB since. Just the same as the co2 issue, its been recorded since 2001 so they can back date it

It cannot be retrospective.

The CO2 legislation is not retrospective. There are no limits for driving a car with high CO2 just extra tax.

Under European Convention retrospective legislation is banned.

Which is why older vehicles do not have to comply with modern safety regs etc.

And do not forget that the EU noise test is a drive past test measured at the roadside from a distance of 7.5m. It is not sticking a noise meter up the arse end of a car and seeing how close to the exhaust valves you can wiggle the probe.

Where are the drive by tests carried out? As high as the manufacturers can get the car in most cases!

So what validity this gives to roadside exhaust noise tests I have no idea.

[Vipers]

Saw on a bikers leather jacket yesterday:-

Loud Pipes saves lives........

Good I thought.

[Quick silver]

absolutely said:

I'm glad they're talking about a noise test in the MOT, there are too many chavs/boy racers with loud exhausts! Loud cars are all very well but racing cars have to be noise tested so why shouldn't road cars? I saw a very loud Skyline 400R? at Hyde Park Corner, it looked like a Le Mans Skyline but without being stickered up, it shook the taxi as it past.

A friend of mine has a Skyline & the exhaust imported with the vehicle is designed with removable baffles.......If legislation regarding exhaust noise becomes an issue at MOT's I think we will just see greater examples of this in the UK, in fact I'm supprised they aren't widespread over here already.

[youngsyr]

Quick silver said:

absolutely said:

I'm glad they're talking about a noise test in the MOT, there are too many chavs/boy racers with loud exhausts! Loud cars are all very well but racing cars have to be noise tested so why shouldn't road cars? I saw a very loud Skyline 400R? at Hyde Park Corner, it looked like a Le Mans Skyline but without being stickered up, it shook the taxi as it past.

A friend of mine has a Skyline & the exhaust imported with the vehicle is designed with removable baffles.......If legislation regarding exhaust noise becomes an issue at MOT's I think we will just see greater examples of this in the UK, in fact I'm supprised they aren't widespread over here already.

The Japanese are way ahead of us in this area. They produce some of the loudest exhausts for Evos, but they all come with a removable bung that sits in that tailpipe so that the exhaust can be tested and pass the local noise tests (JASMA).

Of course, these bungs massively increase the back pressure of the system and mean that the aftermarket big bore exhaust actually harm performance. So of course everyone simply removes the bung when they fit the exhaust!

[drew.h]

stigmundfreud said:

Well it doesnt ahve to be retrospective, the regulation has been there for years about 88dB pre 96 and 84dB since. Just the same as the co2 issue, its been recorded since 2001 so they can back date it

Where does this 88dB and 84dB come from?
How far from the car and at what angle is this measured?
Is it just exhaust noise, what about induction kits, superchargers, dump valves, slipping fan belts, alarms, horns, etc?