Crappy Motorway Policing
Discussion
futie said:
I'm not sure why you mention the pileups you have attended. Do you think that witnessing these things first hand means you are more able to construct a formula for their demise than I?
C'mon Futie, in 7.14% of accidents speed was a major factor: according to the governments own lab. It could have been one of those!
They were probably fine until they went 1mph above the limit where as we all know the laws of physics cease to apply and we have to look to Eistein's relativity for answers.
Plotloss said:
Would any of you purposely creep past a camera van at just a few miles over the limit?
No I thought not!
At up to 79mph in a 70mph why not?
Challenge it and the CPS probably wont wish to persue...
Many have challenged the cameras in Humberside..(on the M18) and have lost at 79mph..
Streetcop said:
gone said:
Would any of you purposely creep past a camera van at just a few miles over the limit?
No I thought not!
At up to 79mph in a 70mph why not?
Challenge it and the CPS probably wont wish to persue...
Many have challenged the cameras in Humberside..(on the M18) and have lost at 79mph..
Fair enough, thats on the threshold.
Many convictions at 78mph?
Thought not...
Followed a vehicle last night along a dual carraigeway section..(70mph zone)...
The vehicle was quicker than anything else, so caught my eye and I followed at a discreet distance...
My colleague checked the vehicle's speed several times over a 5 mile distance and they varied from 80-87mph...However, the driver of the car showed good restraint, didn't race up to other cars etc..(in fact I didn't see brake lights once..)In addition, when there were large views in front and no other vehicles the driver went back into lane 1.
We followed him/her to the exit they took, (they seemed totally unaware of the policecar) but this can be forgiven at night)...onto 40mph and 30mph roads..where the driver obeyed the limit...
Result: first roundabout we came to...I went all the way around and back towards the by-pass..
The vehicle was quicker than anything else, so caught my eye and I followed at a discreet distance...
My colleague checked the vehicle's speed several times over a 5 mile distance and they varied from 80-87mph...However, the driver of the car showed good restraint, didn't race up to other cars etc..(in fact I didn't see brake lights once..)In addition, when there were large views in front and no other vehicles the driver went back into lane 1.
We followed him/her to the exit they took, (they seemed totally unaware of the policecar) but this can be forgiven at night)...onto 40mph and 30mph roads..where the driver obeyed the limit...
Result: first roundabout we came to...I went all the way around and back towards the by-pass..
Plotloss said:
Congratulate yourself on a job well done.
You assessed the safety considerations rather than the speed considerations alone.
Well done!
This happens day in and day out all over the country!
Even I do it
Thats what really grips your s
t when you read some of the crap that gets posted on here about how unfairly people have been dealt with by Officers. What they mean is that they have been dealt with rather than let off or they have had a warning over something which they don't believe was appropriate!
If they have brought attention on themselves then they will sometimes get some kind of interaction whether it is a gesticulation or a bending of an ear or a ticket attached to a penalty!
I am not niaive enough to think that on some occasions the interactions are far from polite or even justified but in the main they are few and far between! Often the anti is started from the subject and not the Police Officer
Unprofessional to react but understandable because they are only human. No Police Officer wants to attract unecessary complaints! They are not good for your CV
gone said:
I have no problem with that. I have a problem with people that exceed the limit to get past and then creep away into the distance when I am at or near the limit in a marked vehicle.
Haven't you got bigger fish to fry ?
Going a little bit over the limit in front of a copper isn't a big problem, surely ?
Personally, I keep it down to 80 in front of marked plod. If they want to ticket me, they can try. So many folks in the UK have speeding tickets, it's not a problem anymore.
gone said:
I am not insecure. I am happy with myself. I like me
What has something to prove got to do with it?
I have nothing to prove. I do have a book full of tickets though
I really do think our poster "gone" has some unresolved issues here. No mention of safety, just issuing tickets for slight technical infractions of an out dated law.
As a voter & a tax payer, the coppers DO have better things to do than ticket folks on the motorway.
dcb said:
Haven't you got bigger fish to fry ?
Most definately but it only takes 5 minutes to deal with such transgressions and in the abscence of dagger wielding fiends at that particular point in time, my time is well spent dealing with the unobservant or the taker of piss!
dcb said:
Going a little bit over the limit in front of a copper isn't a big problem, surely ?
It could be depending on who it is
dcb said:
Personally, I keep it down to 80 in front of marked plod. If they want to ticket me, they can try. So many folks in the UK have speeding tickets, it's not a problem anymore.
It is if it is the 4th time it happens in 3 years dcb said:
I am not insecure. I am happy with myself. I like me
What has something to prove got to do with it?
I have nothing to prove. I do have a book full of tickets though
I really do think our poster "gone" has some unresolved issues here. No mention of safety, just issuing tickets for slight technical infractions of an out dated law.
No unresloved issues at all. Safety is important. I tell them that when I stop them
I tell them and include it as good advice as a bonus to the ticket they receive! dcb said:
As a voter & a tax payer, the coppers DO have better things to do than ticket folks on the motorway.
As a copper, when I am on a motorway travelling from one town to another and someone is taking the piss, I don't have better things to do in that particular 5 minutes
Is it not human nature though to complain about percieved wrongs?
On that basis the Police are no different from shop owners, restraunters and the like.
What I think annoys a lot of people is the attitude that assumes when being strictly applied to traffic offences is that the law is a hard line that doesnt move. Sure advanced training teaches you to be wary of the risks and on that basis you should attract less attention from the BiB but there are occasions when rule 57 is being applied but the speed limit is being exceeded.
It is cases such as these when there is little reasonable danger but an endorsement is still handed down that creates the bad feeling.
There are traffic officers here, I assume that one of their reasons for becoming traffic officers is that they are generally interested in cars. Other people are also interested in cars and interested in improving their driving. I am not for one minute suggesting that there should be some sort of secret handshake for IAM members but more that it could possibly be a mitigating circumstance.
I am also sure that this does already happen, daily.
The problem I percieve is that how do you as an officer differentiate between people who have been caught having a laugh within safe margins and people who are genuine muppets. If you treat them with broad brush stroke of equality then the bad will starts.
It is merely a by product of trying to fit what is by any reasonable definition a non-absolute offence into an absolute box.
Its tricky and I dont for one minute have the answers but I can see how some of this bad feeling arises.
On that basis the Police are no different from shop owners, restraunters and the like.
What I think annoys a lot of people is the attitude that assumes when being strictly applied to traffic offences is that the law is a hard line that doesnt move. Sure advanced training teaches you to be wary of the risks and on that basis you should attract less attention from the BiB but there are occasions when rule 57 is being applied but the speed limit is being exceeded.
It is cases such as these when there is little reasonable danger but an endorsement is still handed down that creates the bad feeling.
There are traffic officers here, I assume that one of their reasons for becoming traffic officers is that they are generally interested in cars. Other people are also interested in cars and interested in improving their driving. I am not for one minute suggesting that there should be some sort of secret handshake for IAM members but more that it could possibly be a mitigating circumstance.
I am also sure that this does already happen, daily.
The problem I percieve is that how do you as an officer differentiate between people who have been caught having a laugh within safe margins and people who are genuine muppets. If you treat them with broad brush stroke of equality then the bad will starts.
It is merely a by product of trying to fit what is by any reasonable definition a non-absolute offence into an absolute box.
Its tricky and I dont for one minute have the answers but I can see how some of this bad feeling arises.
Plotloss said:
The problem I percieve is that how do you as an officer differentiate between people who have been caught having a laugh within safe margins and people who are genuine muppets. If you treat them with broad brush stroke of equality then the bad will starts.
Its called experience
Plotless said:
It is merely a by product of trying to fit what is by any reasonable definition a non-absolute offence into an absolute box.
Most motoring offences are 'absolute' or offences of 'strict liability'. That means they require no mens rea. They fit neatly into that absolute box!
Plotless said:
Its tricky and I dont for one minute have the answers but I can see how some of this bad feeling arises.
I can see it. I do see it. Mainly though, everyone expects to be cut a little slack. When they don't get it, thats what starts the bad feeling! they feel hard done by
"What about him?" they digruntedly state wagging a figer of suspicion in the direction of another miscreant driver hooning past!
What about him? If it hadn't been you, it probably would have been him instead
That was a decision made by the driver now feeling bad feelings about the Police and vowing never to help them again trev r said:
Streetcop's use of discretion is an example of the correct way to enforce the law. We need more like him.
You're very kind..
However, you'll find that there are loads of trafpol just like me...perhaps nearly all of them...
It's just that moments like I've described are usually forgotten about hours later and the driver involved isn't the wiser in the slightest. It's only after you've been stopped do you think of the negative side of law enforcement.
There is some stats about if you have a bad experience with a BiB..you tell 50 people over the space of a year. Have a good experience and you tell 6 people.
Anyway, thanks for the compliment..
I'm sure it applies to my colleagues gone, Dibble, Silvebackmike, and the others...trev r said:
Streetcop's use of discretion is an example of the correct way to enforce the law. We need more like him.
So when he uses the double edged sword of discretion and the person involved is clutching a penalty notice,is this what wold be considered the correct way to enforce the law?
I wonder....The trouble for the police is that people only really notice when they use their discretion and still decide that the right thing to do is pull the driver.
For instance, blokey that Streetcop describes probably hasn't got any idea that he was 'let off', because it was dark and he possibly didn't spot that it was a plod car. So he wasn't actually aware of the sensitive policing.
So there you go - join the Police - damned if you do and damned if you don't. At least the pension's better than the private sector
For instance, blokey that Streetcop describes probably hasn't got any idea that he was 'let off', because it was dark and he possibly didn't spot that it was a plod car. So he wasn't actually aware of the sensitive policing.
So there you go - join the Police - damned if you do and damned if you don't. At least the pension's better than the private sector
When looking further into this absolute/non-absolute (and I mean in their legal definition) malarky.
It brings us to the question of why do we have speed limits?
We have speed limits because we cant have people travelling at what speed they like because it is supposedly unsafe.
Some people are perfectly comfortable at 120mph whereas some get scared at 60mph on the same road.
Therefore the relative safety of someone travelling at a given speed is defined by their ability to drive and react.
If we want safe roads then having speeding as an absolute offence seems somewhat incongruant. For every person who is safe on a motorway at 100mph I bet there are two or three who are unsafe at 70mph
An arbitary limit is no indication of safety therefore logically speed should not be an absolute offence!
It brings us to the question of why do we have speed limits?
We have speed limits because we cant have people travelling at what speed they like because it is supposedly unsafe.
Some people are perfectly comfortable at 120mph whereas some get scared at 60mph on the same road.
Therefore the relative safety of someone travelling at a given speed is defined by their ability to drive and react.
If we want safe roads then having speeding as an absolute offence seems somewhat incongruant. For every person who is safe on a motorway at 100mph I bet there are two or three who are unsafe at 70mph
An arbitary limit is no indication of safety therefore logically speed should not be an absolute offence!
Plotloss said:
An arbitary limit is no indication of safety therefore logically speed should not be an absolute offence!
But by your very post above, this shows a reason for an average which is safe for everyone. Those that are capable will be capable at the average. Those that are notso good will also be capable.
The problem is when those that are not so good get in they way (intentionally or not) of those that are good when those that are good are not being quite as good as they should be because of some other distraction!
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