Can a Person Claim Back Money They Gifted Someone?
Discussion
I don't see any valid legal argument to return the money gifted.
Your post about the house gives useful context as to why you have arrived at this point. I suspects that what she really wants is fir you to either buy her out of her life interest or allow her to live in the whole house for life.
The idea of a DoT that allows for the conversion of the property into two flats and for her to have a life interest in one of them was a bonkers idea by your FiL and any self respecting solicitor should have advised against it
Your post about the house gives useful context as to why you have arrived at this point. I suspects that what she really wants is fir you to either buy her out of her life interest or allow her to live in the whole house for life.
The idea of a DoT that allows for the conversion of the property into two flats and for her to have a life interest in one of them was a bonkers idea by your FiL and any self respecting solicitor should have advised against it
Thank you all for your responses.
After speaking to a few more people, one of whom is a retired barrister, wife will seek advice on her own position going forward.
Re letter received and from the solicitors (the solicitor has even spelled their own name wrong, btw!) there is no obligation to provide the requested details.
The property can only be disposed of on the unanimous agreement of the trustees, which makes the letter quite pointless in terms of Resident Evil's intent; proper legal advice will be sought because she could still be around for another couple of decades (currently 78). The property is an asset which will need maintenance and upkeep etc. It is also inured by her, so could she accidentally set fire to it? What happens then? Pertinent about different outcomes questions need answering now.
It could have played out well for all concerned if she simply played the role of grandmother (something she does not have without her late husband's grandkids). She started talking about writing the kids into her will because she has nobody else and as much as they weren't keen on her personality, we kept up the visits as best we could. We suggested that the house was sold and she chose a smaller, more manageable place to move to (from the sale). Her words were, 'I will die in this house' and she then started clawing at everything she could think of.
Seeing she has no dependents (literally, not even nieces or nephews) part of me thinks she has a new best friend giving her moral support in the background. We all know the types...
After speaking to a few more people, one of whom is a retired barrister, wife will seek advice on her own position going forward.
Re letter received and from the solicitors (the solicitor has even spelled their own name wrong, btw!) there is no obligation to provide the requested details.
The property can only be disposed of on the unanimous agreement of the trustees, which makes the letter quite pointless in terms of Resident Evil's intent; proper legal advice will be sought because she could still be around for another couple of decades (currently 78). The property is an asset which will need maintenance and upkeep etc. It is also inured by her, so could she accidentally set fire to it? What happens then? Pertinent about different outcomes questions need answering now.
It could have played out well for all concerned if she simply played the role of grandmother (something she does not have without her late husband's grandkids). She started talking about writing the kids into her will because she has nobody else and as much as they weren't keen on her personality, we kept up the visits as best we could. We suggested that the house was sold and she chose a smaller, more manageable place to move to (from the sale). Her words were, 'I will die in this house' and she then started clawing at everything she could think of.
Seeing she has no dependents (literally, not even nieces or nephews) part of me thinks she has a new best friend giving her moral support in the background. We all know the types...
Re the letter from her solicitor. Have more checks been done on who he/she is ? The address looks fishy for a start. Have checks with the Law Society ( and/or other bodies) been done regarding the person or legal firm? Are they genuine? Is she trying it on? Is she being prompted to do so by someone else?
As she can live at the house until death( move to a care home?) has the decision to split the house to leave her in a half of it been sprung on her out of the blue?
Another thought....if she does buy another property is she thinking she can sell the house ( or force a sale) to fund it? That tests the actual ownership ( her or your wife) and the legality of a sale. Can she sell? I suspect not. Can your wife sell ( make significant changes by splitting) while MIL is alive and living there underthe terms of the will? Expert advice needed!
As she can live at the house until death( move to a care home?) has the decision to split the house to leave her in a half of it been sprung on her out of the blue?
Another thought....if she does buy another property is she thinking she can sell the house ( or force a sale) to fund it? That tests the actual ownership ( her or your wife) and the legality of a sale. Can she sell? I suspect not. Can your wife sell ( make significant changes by splitting) while MIL is alive and living there underthe terms of the will? Expert advice needed!
Edited by sospan on Saturday 18th November 15:33
Edited by sospan on Saturday 18th November 15:40
Glassman said:
Seeing she has no dependents (literally, not even nieces or nephews) part of me thinks she has a new best friend giving her moral support in the background. We all know the types...
Have the terms of the Will / Trust come as a surprise to her? She may have been assuming she'd be left the house.Your FiL has done well by his daughter - I've a couple of friends whose Dads had familiy businesses and died relatively young. Everything disappeared when their mothers remarried.
Sheepshanks said:
Have the terms of the Will / Trust come as a surprise to her? She may have been assuming she'd be left the house.
Your FiL has done well by his daughter - I've a couple of friends whose Dads had familiy businesses and died relatively young. Everything disappeared when their mothers remarried.
She was given a copy when it was drafted, and I think she signed to accept/agree to the terms. Your FiL has done well by his daughter - I've a couple of friends whose Dads had familiy businesses and died relatively young. Everything disappeared when their mothers remarried.
My feeling is she has been advised and encouraged to challenge it as it is flimsy.
It's a weird letter which is also asking for what bank/investment accounts late father (her husband) might have had; the details of any additional property he might have invested in, along with 'any other assets' which belonged to him. Solicitor also wants to see the invoice for the father's funeral. The letter finishes by saying that stepmum feels threatened by daughter and any attempt to contact her - or visit the house - will result in the police being called and a court order will be sought thereafter.
I would go by the order /suggestion in the solicitor letter and not be contacting either resident evil or the solicitor and if she contacts you then report it as harassment.
Surely any additional investments /property he had would be listed in the will.
If it was a gift then state you have spent it and cannot give it back.
I would go by the order /suggestion in the solicitor letter and not be contacting either resident evil or the solicitor and if she contacts you then report it as harassment.
Surely any additional investments /property he had would be listed in the will.
If it was a gift then state you have spent it and cannot give it back.
As a different perspective -
How much did she gift?
Was it spent on the kids?
For what?
If you dislike her so much (and anyway) why not pay for your own kids?
Was the carve up of the house done in a trust in his lifetime or in his will?
Did she sign to agree to it or to relinquish any potentially deemed or accrued rights?
Did she take independent legal advice regarding that?
What other provision did he make for her, your wife and others?
How detailed is it regarding the practicalities of carving up the marital home that a 78 year old widow living in it might have a few entirely reasonable concerns about?
Would you prefer her to be isolated and not to have any support in dealing with what is no doubt a disconcerting situation? You know the type;)
How much did she gift?
Was it spent on the kids?
For what?
If you dislike her so much (and anyway) why not pay for your own kids?
Was the carve up of the house done in a trust in his lifetime or in his will?
Did she sign to agree to it or to relinquish any potentially deemed or accrued rights?
Did she take independent legal advice regarding that?
What other provision did he make for her, your wife and others?
How detailed is it regarding the practicalities of carving up the marital home that a 78 year old widow living in it might have a few entirely reasonable concerns about?
Would you prefer her to be isolated and not to have any support in dealing with what is no doubt a disconcerting situation? You know the type;)
The big yin said:
If it was a gift then state you have spent it and cannot give it back.
If it's a gift there's no requirement to give it back, full stop, Hence 'gift'.If Mr Rinder is anything to go by - and he had many cases of this - then when money is involved within a family, it's invariably regarded as a gift UNLESS some written agreement exists that it was a loan. There isn't. So my unqualified view is that she's trying it on, has no grounds in law, is being very silly and very unpleasant, and can basically sing for it.
jmcc500 said:
Someone close to me, one of three children, inherited nothing from their father who had remarried after their mother's death. None of the kids got a bean. The £3m estate instead went to Cancer Research and Barnardos. Which is great in a way but somewhat galling for 2 of the 3 kids who are living on very little and for whom even 5% of that would have been a life-changing inheritance.
Apologies for going OT, but did they take any legal advice? It sounds like the two kids you mention would have had a very strong - verging on cast iron - claim under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975.Unfortunately there’s a 6 month time limit from the date probate was granted to make a claim, but it can sometimes be extended.
Pro Bono said:
jmcc500 said:
Someone close to me, one of three children, inherited nothing from their father who had remarried after their mother's death. None of the kids got a bean. The £3m estate instead went to Cancer Research and Barnardos. Which is great in a way but somewhat galling for 2 of the 3 kids who are living on very little and for whom even 5% of that would have been a life-changing inheritance.
Apologies for going OT, but did they take any legal advice? It sounds like the two kids you mention would have had a very strong - verging on cast iron - claim under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975.Unfortunately there’s a 6 month time limit from the date probate was granted to make a claim, but it can sometimes be extended.
I did wonder in the OPs case if the widow has been adequately provided for, or if she is financially independent.
pork911 said:
As a different perspective -
How much did she gift?
What difference would knowing the amount make to the question?.
Was it spent on the kids?
No; it was given to them for their future and that is what we did with it.
For what?
As above
If you dislike her so much (and anyway) why not pay for your own kids?
Great question. She is disliked because she is a nasty bit of work. My wife lost her mother to cancer when she was 12. Resident evil arrived on the scene about a year later. She did all she could to get her new step daughter to runaway (calling her a prostitute, drug addict, thief, or whatever else she could to put her down - remember - she was a teenager listening to all this). All through her marriage she also abused her husband, mostly mentally, but in later years she started to abuse him physically, like smashing his dark glasses he had to wear after his cataract op; she tried to suffocate him with a duvet on two occasions (police were called, but FiL decided in the end not to press charges when she apologised) and she even locked him out of the house - in winter - when she sent him out to empty the bin (point in note: this was when he was in his mid seventies, after his heart bypass op).
I can give you more reasons why she is a hateful person, but hopefully this will give you an idea. When, after her husbands death she looked like she was feeling lonely and perhaps even full of remorse for her previous behaviour, wife believed her - pitied her - and gave her a chance to find some peace mainly with her step grand children.
As for paying for my/our own kids: we do. Both gainfully employed and do all we can for them. A gift came along from a grandparent and we saw nothing wrong with it.
Was the carve up of the house done in a trust in his lifetime or in his will?
Deed of Trust was drawn up when he was alive, as was he last Will etc. She knew about splitting the house all along. It's a large house which is way too big for an elderly person to be living in, never mind looking after alone.
Did she sign to agree to it or to relinquish any potentially deemed or accrued rights?
Did she take independent legal advice regarding that?
What other provision did he make for her, your wife and others?
How detailed is it regarding the practicalities of carving up the marital home that a 78 year old widow living in it might have a few entirely reasonable concerns about?
Would you prefer her to be isolated and not to have any support in dealing with what is no doubt a disconcerting situation? You know the type;)
Despite her nefarious actions/behaviour, she was welcomed into our small family circle. She's a very awkward person to understand, often loud and can even appear abrupt, curt and rude. After death of her husband we felt that she was longing for a sense of belonging so we enthused a relationship whereby she felt she had grandkids, and they felt like they had a nanny figure in their lives. All this turned the moment we raised the subject of her living alone in such a large house and perhaps she should think about a smaller place closer to us and her fiends. Her response was to state that she will die in the house. As a compromise, she agreed that the house - as per DoT - can be split. When we took the first steps of arranging a surveyor, she cut us off and blocked all comms. Next thing, a letter from her solicitor arrived.
HTHHow much did she gift?
What difference would knowing the amount make to the question?.
Was it spent on the kids?
No; it was given to them for their future and that is what we did with it.
For what?
As above
If you dislike her so much (and anyway) why not pay for your own kids?
Great question. She is disliked because she is a nasty bit of work. My wife lost her mother to cancer when she was 12. Resident evil arrived on the scene about a year later. She did all she could to get her new step daughter to runaway (calling her a prostitute, drug addict, thief, or whatever else she could to put her down - remember - she was a teenager listening to all this). All through her marriage she also abused her husband, mostly mentally, but in later years she started to abuse him physically, like smashing his dark glasses he had to wear after his cataract op; she tried to suffocate him with a duvet on two occasions (police were called, but FiL decided in the end not to press charges when she apologised) and she even locked him out of the house - in winter - when she sent him out to empty the bin (point in note: this was when he was in his mid seventies, after his heart bypass op).
I can give you more reasons why she is a hateful person, but hopefully this will give you an idea. When, after her husbands death she looked like she was feeling lonely and perhaps even full of remorse for her previous behaviour, wife believed her - pitied her - and gave her a chance to find some peace mainly with her step grand children.
As for paying for my/our own kids: we do. Both gainfully employed and do all we can for them. A gift came along from a grandparent and we saw nothing wrong with it.
Was the carve up of the house done in a trust in his lifetime or in his will?
Deed of Trust was drawn up when he was alive, as was he last Will etc. She knew about splitting the house all along. It's a large house which is way too big for an elderly person to be living in, never mind looking after alone.
Did she sign to agree to it or to relinquish any potentially deemed or accrued rights?
Did she take independent legal advice regarding that?
What other provision did he make for her, your wife and others?
How detailed is it regarding the practicalities of carving up the marital home that a 78 year old widow living in it might have a few entirely reasonable concerns about?
Would you prefer her to be isolated and not to have any support in dealing with what is no doubt a disconcerting situation? You know the type;)
Despite her nefarious actions/behaviour, she was welcomed into our small family circle. She's a very awkward person to understand, often loud and can even appear abrupt, curt and rude. After death of her husband we felt that she was longing for a sense of belonging so we enthused a relationship whereby she felt she had grandkids, and they felt like they had a nanny figure in their lives. All this turned the moment we raised the subject of her living alone in such a large house and perhaps she should think about a smaller place closer to us and her fiends. Her response was to state that she will die in the house. As a compromise, she agreed that the house - as per DoT - can be split. When we took the first steps of arranging a surveyor, she cut us off and blocked all comms. Next thing, a letter from her solicitor arrived.
Edited by Glassman on Sunday 19th November 09:55
Strange you should wish to share so much that is bad about her but not the amount she gifted for your kids or how it was used for their benefit.
Strange too your focus for the thread was the legal consequences rather than morality of the gift return but now the morality rather legal consequence (nil) of your take on her behaviour.
Anywa, both the original idea of setting up a trust that would split the house and then seeking to proceed would be fraught with problems for all even if you all got on wonderfully.
There are always at least 3 sides to every story but this comment jumped out -
'All this turned the moment we raised the subject of her living alone in such a large house and perhaps she should think about a smaller place closer to us and her fiends.'
Which may be related to your lack of direct response to some of the very basic initial questions -
Did she sign to agree to it or to relinquish any potentially deemed or accrued rights?
Did she take independent legal advice regarding that?
What other provision did he make for her, your wife and others?
How detailed is it regarding the practicalities of carving up the marital home that a 78 year old widow living in it might have a few entirely reasonable concerns about?
Your wife should perhaps take some legal advice about the gift, trust, will, house, which are all interconnected here.
The first step though should be to drop the resident evil b
ks as regards the incoming legal dispute as it's likely to blind you from pursuing lines that are effective rather than distractive in that dispute.
Strange too your focus for the thread was the legal consequences rather than morality of the gift return but now the morality rather legal consequence (nil) of your take on her behaviour.
Anywa, both the original idea of setting up a trust that would split the house and then seeking to proceed would be fraught with problems for all even if you all got on wonderfully.
There are always at least 3 sides to every story but this comment jumped out -
'All this turned the moment we raised the subject of her living alone in such a large house and perhaps she should think about a smaller place closer to us and her fiends.'
Which may be related to your lack of direct response to some of the very basic initial questions -
Did she sign to agree to it or to relinquish any potentially deemed or accrued rights?
Did she take independent legal advice regarding that?
What other provision did he make for her, your wife and others?
How detailed is it regarding the practicalities of carving up the marital home that a 78 year old widow living in it might have a few entirely reasonable concerns about?
Your wife should perhaps take some legal advice about the gift, trust, will, house, which are all interconnected here.
The first step though should be to drop the resident evil b
ks as regards the incoming legal dispute as it's likely to blind you from pursuing lines that are effective rather than distractive in that dispute.Another possible slant might be that she is being manipulated by someone.
Elderly widow in a big house. Prime target for an unscrupulous person.
I would definitely get the solicitor’s letter checked out as it has enough suspicions around it. Is a solicitor the actual source? If not keep as evidence for fraud/scam/devious other party. If a genuine solicitor then get your own to look at the letter and background of the solicitor. May be a rogue solicitor.
Other than that, without paperwork to confirm a gift or loan then it falls to he said/she said with the lack of evidence ( loan agreement/letter) to prove not a gift. Mr Rinder repeatedly emphasises that.
I doubt this family feud will resolve quickly and easily.
Elderly widow in a big house. Prime target for an unscrupulous person.
I would definitely get the solicitor’s letter checked out as it has enough suspicions around it. Is a solicitor the actual source? If not keep as evidence for fraud/scam/devious other party. If a genuine solicitor then get your own to look at the letter and background of the solicitor. May be a rogue solicitor.
Other than that, without paperwork to confirm a gift or loan then it falls to he said/she said with the lack of evidence ( loan agreement/letter) to prove not a gift. Mr Rinder repeatedly emphasises that.
I doubt this family feud will resolve quickly and easily.
sospan said:
Another possible slant might be that she is being manipulated by someone.
Elderly widow in a big house. Prime target for an unscrupulous person.
I would definitely get the solicitor’s letter checked out as it has enough suspicions around it. Is a solicitor the actual source? If not keep as evidence for fraud/scam/devious other party. If a genuine solicitor then get your own to look at the letter and background of the solicitor. May be a rogue solicitor.
Other than that, without paperwork to confirm a gift or loan then it falls to he said/she said with the lack of evidence ( loan agreement/letter) to prove not a gift. Mr Rinder repeatedly emphasises that.
I doubt this family feud will resolve quickly and easily.
Checked out the solicitor. Address appears to be a mailbox in the building of a train station. What stood out for me was how badly it was written and that the surname of the solicitor was spelled wrong. Elderly widow in a big house. Prime target for an unscrupulous person.
I would definitely get the solicitor’s letter checked out as it has enough suspicions around it. Is a solicitor the actual source? If not keep as evidence for fraud/scam/devious other party. If a genuine solicitor then get your own to look at the letter and background of the solicitor. May be a rogue solicitor.
Other than that, without paperwork to confirm a gift or loan then it falls to he said/she said with the lack of evidence ( loan agreement/letter) to prove not a gift. Mr Rinder repeatedly emphasises that.
I doubt this family feud will resolve quickly and easily.
Glassman said:
The letter starts by them stating they are "required to clarify" her equitable interest in the house which is currently in trust. The Deed states she can stay there until she pegs out (and when this happens, the whole house goes to the (only) daughter). In the meantime, daughter can convert the house into two flats if she chooses.
does the deed specify the house can be split up into flats and the MIL only gets one? this seems like an odd position to be in - there'd be nothing to turn the house into one tiny flat the MIL gets (thus effectively forcing her out). Regardless of the past, I'm not overly surprised she's digging her heels in and asking for money to help buy a property if the current proposal is to carve up her family home without her consent.5lab said:
does the deed specify the house can be split up into flats and the MIL only gets one? this seems like an odd position to be in - there'd be nothing to turn the house into one tiny flat the MIL gets (thus effectively forcing her out). Regardless of the past, I'm not overly surprised she's digging her heels in and asking for money to help buy a property if the current proposal is to carve up her family home without her consent.
To be clear, yes, it was her family home but she's never been comfortable with it and tried very hard to get her husband to sell. The house, was the marital home of her late husband and his late wife. When she moved in, it was already paid for. No mortgage. She, herself comes from a wealthy family and has always focused on material wealth. She wanted it all, but the house was already in his daughter's name. Resident Evil wanted it all to herself and his idea of placating her (my guess) was to give her the reassurance that she wouldn't be homeless after his death. I don't know if she sought any independent advice, but she's there and will be until the end. The Deed always stated the house can be split into two dwellings.
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