Police to monitor every vehicle journey in UK
Discussion
Its not really the cost of storage that is the limiting factor. It the logistics of making upward of 100,000 terabytes accessable to a system, given the number of disks that would need to be accessable for online searching. Also, If you assume that 25% of journeys are made within rush hour, the system would have to write around 4Gb a second to the disks (very rough calculations 
)
While it may be possible to do, I think the govenment has bitten off far more than it can chew on this on.
>> Edited by munta on Thursday 22 December 16:03
) While it may be possible to do, I think the govenment has bitten off far more than it can chew on this on.
>> Edited by munta on Thursday 22 December 16:03
Munta said:
most modern O/S of any note (Unix) organise disks in 512 byte
blocks, so each record would occupy a block on its own. This increases
the projected size to
a little over 13 Terrabytes. Now that IS big. add in the indexing and
you don't get a lot of change from 15 Terrabytes.
Would you like mirroring with that sir?
Which would leave 497 bytes for extra info like number of points on license of regitered keeper, criminal convictions, known associates, colour of underpants, date of last shag, etc etc etc etc.
These figures miss out one vital piece of information. What about storage of the photographic evidence?
When used for ANPR, the burdon of proof is low as criminal pocedings are unlikely and only a simple fine is issued. Surely, If there is no photo graphic evidence then the system can not be used as proof of anything serious. I would assume that any photo of good enough quality to be relied upon as evidence in a serious criminal case would need to be about 500Kb. Thats one hell of a lot of storage. Around 15,000 terabytes.
I think they are intending to use it for 'intelligence' more than 'evidence'. If as some say, this is the thin end of the road pricing wedge, I'll be travelling on 'B' roads much more.
tallbloke said:If they are going to use it for road pricing and wont have photograpic evidence, I can see the courts getting rather clogged with appeals
most modern O/S of any note (Unix) organise disks in 512 byte
blocks, so each record would occupy a block on its own. This increases
the projected size to
a little over 13 Terrabytes. Now that IS big. add in the indexing and
you don't get a lot of change from 15 Terrabytes.
Would you like mirroring with that sir?
Which would leave 497 bytes for extra info like number of points on license of regitered keeper, criminal convictions, known associates, colour of underpants, date of last shag, etc etc etc etc.
These figures miss out one vital piece of information. What about storage of the photographic evidence?
When used for ANPR, the burdon of proof is low as criminal pocedings are unlikely and only a simple fine is issued. Surely, If there is no photo graphic evidence then the system can not be used as proof of anything serious. I would assume that any photo of good enough quality to be relied upon as evidence in a serious criminal case would need to be about 500Kb. Thats one hell of a lot of storage. Around 15,000 terabytes.
I think they are intending to use it for 'intelligence' more than 'evidence'. If as some say, this is the thin end of the road pricing wedge, I'll be travelling on 'B' roads much more.
apache said:
I'd be happy not having the system, proper immigration controls and a legal system that doesn't let violent serial criminals loose on society.
Once again we are seeing a symptom being treated at the cost of our liberty and freedom rather than treating the cause.
Cameras seem to be a panacea for sloppy government and cheap policing
Spot on, especially that last sentence.
munta said:
I think they are intending to use it for 'intelligence' more than 'evidence'. If as some say, this is the thin end of the road pricing wedge, I'll be travelling on 'B' roads much more.
They'd love to combine it with compulsory blackbox gps units and rfid tagged number plates so they can dismiss appeals on 'weight of evidence' and 'low probability of error'. They'll make failure on appeal so expensive you won't dare try it.
tallbloke said:
I think they are intending to use it for 'intelligence' more than 'evidence'. If as some say, this is the thin end of the road pricing wedge, I'll be travelling on 'B' roads much more.
They'd love to combine it with compulsory blackbox gps units and rfid tagged number plates so they can dismiss appeals on 'weight of evidence' and 'low probability of error'. They'll make failure on appeal so expensive you won't dare try it.
Long term, you are probably right. Short term, I think (hope) they will have mass protest on their hands.
My thoughts:
Face recognition isn't going to be possible in the near future (I'm doing phd in AI). Instead will have to have black box in car that will pick up driver's & passengers' RFID card details, which will then be broadcast to roadside camera boxes to be combined with vehicle movement data. That will enable them to know who is going where. 15 terabyte databases quite feasible, I've built bigger. No need to store photos.
I am extremely suspicious about the purpose of RFID cards and vehicle monitoring systems. I am in favour of the creation of a national persons database, but I don't see why we need to be covertly identified (ie without our knowledge) at all times!
Face recognition isn't going to be possible in the near future (I'm doing phd in AI). Instead will have to have black box in car that will pick up driver's & passengers' RFID card details, which will then be broadcast to roadside camera boxes to be combined with vehicle movement data. That will enable them to know who is going where. 15 terabyte databases quite feasible, I've built bigger. No need to store photos.
I am extremely suspicious about the purpose of RFID cards and vehicle monitoring systems. I am in favour of the creation of a national persons database, but I don't see why we need to be covertly identified (ie without our knowledge) at all times!
I've said before that the 'black-box' scenario is where I draw the line and will deliberately break the law. I will not have one in my car - no way 
This over zealous use of cameras is only one step away, and I for one will not be cleaning my car ever again if it actually happens.
If anybody hears of a protest being organised against this
ing nazi state, then let me know. I'll be right there at the front...
This over zealous use of cameras is only one step away, and I for one will not be cleaning my car ever again if it actually happens.
If anybody hears of a protest being organised against this
ing nazi state, then let me know. I'll be right there at the front... 
Databases of 100TB plus are not at all unusual, and in fact take up very little physical space (about 2 racks for 100TB in fact). 4GB/s throughput is also quite feasible -- I've seen 10GB/s before and faster throughput rates are coming next year.
But don't you wonder just what planet these people are on? How can they think it's ok simply to roll out a nationwide surveillance system without a by-your-leave? Is this part of Tony's "legacy" legislation?
How will we remember Mr Blair? He's the one who removed more civil liberties in 100 months than everyone else together managed in 1000 years, and was proud to be seen to be "fighting terrorism" by this means. Oh, and no, terrorism wasn't defeated by this because freedom and terrorism are not the opposite ends of a continuum.
But don't you wonder just what planet these people are on? How can they think it's ok simply to roll out a nationwide surveillance system without a by-your-leave? Is this part of Tony's "legacy" legislation?
How will we remember Mr Blair? He's the one who removed more civil liberties in 100 months than everyone else together managed in 1000 years, and was proud to be seen to be "fighting terrorism" by this means. Oh, and no, terrorism wasn't defeated by this because freedom and terrorism are not the opposite ends of a continuum.
Didn’t the Tories undertake a similar experiment like this, about fifteen years ago?
They called it the Community Charge, or something.
This became known as the Poll Tax after the hated 14th-century Poll Tax, which had been a major cause of the Peasants' Revolt.
It was all about collecting money, from every citizen, and - importantly – the parallels of knowing where every citizen was went down a huge bundle with the electorate.
Protests against the new charge culminated in violent rioting in central London in April 1990.
Violence erupted following a peaceful march which saw up to 70,000 people take to the streets in protest at the new government levy.
Demonstrators attacked police with bricks and cans. As the riot escalated in size and violence the first Police were injured. The police tactics used to quell the riot were the subject of some controversy.
Over 400 arrests were made and property damage was estimated at £400,000. The Poll tax eventually caused the downfall of Margaret Thatcher in November 1990.
Now, hasn’t Tony Bliar been mentioning some sort of “legacy” to be remembered by, when he leaves politics?
And, isn’t Gordon waiting just round the corner?
Makes you wonder….
They called it the Community Charge, or something.
This became known as the Poll Tax after the hated 14th-century Poll Tax, which had been a major cause of the Peasants' Revolt.
It was all about collecting money, from every citizen, and - importantly – the parallels of knowing where every citizen was went down a huge bundle with the electorate.
Protests against the new charge culminated in violent rioting in central London in April 1990.
Violence erupted following a peaceful march which saw up to 70,000 people take to the streets in protest at the new government levy.
Demonstrators attacked police with bricks and cans. As the riot escalated in size and violence the first Police were injured. The police tactics used to quell the riot were the subject of some controversy.
Over 400 arrests were made and property damage was estimated at £400,000. The Poll tax eventually caused the downfall of Margaret Thatcher in November 1990.
Now, hasn’t Tony Bliar been mentioning some sort of “legacy” to be remembered by, when he leaves politics?
And, isn’t Gordon waiting just round the corner?
Makes you wonder….
I would suggest that the answer is for everyone to simply remove thier numberplates in protest.
This is a free country. Where I travel to is my own farking business, and no-one else's except those I choose to inform.
You can tell the Government is sensitive about the introduction of this initiative. You can tell that the Government is paranoid about this become the latest civil liberties arguement. How? Because if neither statement was true, then Blair would be gassing his big mouth off about it everywhere.
The fact that the opposition agree with this initiative makes me despair frankly - who the hell is prepared to stand up for civil liberties and against the introduction of more surveillance culture?
So, if this does get introduced, I say chuck the numberplates away. Take spray can to other people's numberplates plates to cause disruption. Time to go & buy a hoodie - Tony Blair (and Ian Blair) want thier cameras and computers to tell them where you travel, where you sleep at night, who your friends are, what business you do. I offer two libertarian fingers to all of that.
This is a free country. Where I travel to is my own farking business, and no-one else's except those I choose to inform.
You can tell the Government is sensitive about the introduction of this initiative. You can tell that the Government is paranoid about this become the latest civil liberties arguement. How? Because if neither statement was true, then Blair would be gassing his big mouth off about it everywhere.
The fact that the opposition agree with this initiative makes me despair frankly - who the hell is prepared to stand up for civil liberties and against the introduction of more surveillance culture?
So, if this does get introduced, I say chuck the numberplates away. Take spray can to other people's numberplates plates to cause disruption. Time to go & buy a hoodie - Tony Blair (and Ian Blair) want thier cameras and computers to tell them where you travel, where you sleep at night, who your friends are, what business you do. I offer two libertarian fingers to all of that.
corozin said:
I would suggest that the answer is for everyone to simply remove thier numberplates in protest.
If only they had the balls to.
Major vocal and direct action types of opposition to this kind of shite are the only way theyll listen.
corozin said:
This is a free country.
Er, not any more its not. They can arrest you for shouting "nonsense" at a Labour Confrence (actually a Stasi cabinet meeting) and hold you without charge.
corozin said:
Where I travel to is my own farking business, and no-one else's except those I choose to inform.
I agree. They dont. They NEED to know everything about you so they can pull your strings when they feel they want to.
corozin said:
You can tell the Government is sensitive about the introduction of this initiative. You can tell that the Government is paranoid about this become the latest civil liberties arguement. How? Because if neither statement was true, then Blair would be gassing his big mouth off about it everywhere.
Maybe so but like all unpopular measures theyll introduce em via the back door, just like all the rest of this Anti terror bullshit.
corozin said:
The fact that the opposition agree with this initiative makes me despair frankly - who the hell is prepared to stand up for civil liberties and against the introduction of more surveillance culture?
The only people that can. Thats motivated, uncowed, aggressive individuals like you and me.
The rest are sheep that will go to their own slaughter willingly and i might add, deservedly.
corozin said:
So, if this does get introduced, I say chuck the numberplates away. Take spray can to other people's numberplates plates to cause disruption.
Amen Brother.
corozin said:
Time to go & buy a hoodie -
Only if it dosent ruin my hair!
corozin said:
Tony Blair (and Ian Blair) want thier cameras and computers to tell them where you travel, where you sleep at night, who your friends are, what business you do. I offer two libertarian fingers to all of that.
I offer two anglo saxon digits to the lot of em also and more besides.
Bring it on.
[quote=$lowpoke]Look, what do you expect anyway? You're all subjects, not citizens. They can do anything they like to you!
:runsforthedoor:
>> Edited by $lowpoke on Thursday 22 December 19:58[/quote]
WE ARE SUBJECTS OF THE MONARCHY, NOT THE F*CKING GOVERNMENT. THEY ARE ELECTED TO REPRESENT US Or screw us at every available opportunity...
[quote=corozin]I would suggest that the answer is for everyone to simply remove thier numberplates in protest.[/quote]
With you on that one. Out of interest, what is the penalty for not displaying a number plate? And if enough of us did it, we'd overload the system anyway. Bloody good idea
:runsforthedoor:
>> Edited by $lowpoke on Thursday 22 December 19:58[/quote]
WE ARE SUBJECTS OF THE MONARCHY, NOT THE F*CKING GOVERNMENT. THEY ARE ELECTED TO REPRESENT US Or screw us at every available opportunity... [quote=corozin]I would suggest that the answer is for everyone to simply remove thier numberplates in protest.[/quote]
With you on that one. Out of interest, what is the penalty for not displaying a number plate? And if enough of us did it, we'd overload the system anyway. Bloody good idea
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