Rules for Tier 4.

[NikBartlett]

sixor8 said:

Breadvan72 said:

Amateurish said:

Is going on holiday a "reasonable excuse" for leaving home in Tier 4? It is not a listed exception, so the question would ultimately be one for a court to determine. Personally, I think it would not be deemed reasonable, especially since government guidance explicitly says it isn't.

That is a false point. The guidance is not an aid to interpretation of the Regulations.

Visitors to the Scilly Isles (who are in tier 1) from tier 4 were turned around and sent home by the police:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/police-on-ti...

Why wait until they have landed in the Isles of Scilly surely they would have been turned away at Lands End Airport before getting on the flight. Of course it may have been a private plane but even then surely they would have been denied permission to land ( or eve take off ) ?

[Gribs]

Amateurish said:

basherX said:

bad company said:

I thought I’d covered that. He has less than a year left anyway so prepared to take the risk.

It’s far from an ideal situation but all in all I reckon I’m doing the right thing. Probably still illegal though.

We failed to see my wife’s terminally ill aunt during lockdown 1. We were then unable, due to technical difficulties, to get access to the virtual funeral. Don’t make the mistake that we made. You’d have to be completely inhuman to criticise you for making such a trip.

It is permitted to visit a friend or relative whom one "reasonably believes is dying".

Is there a usual definition in law of "dying" as as far as I'm aware non of us are immortal?

[anonymous-user]

Amateurish said:

Is it your contention that going on holiday is a reasonable excuse? If so, why?

Yes, because it's a reasonable thing to do, especially if already paid for. Reasonable is not a difficult concept. In any event, the burden lies on the prosecution, not on the defendant.

[anonymous-user]

Gribs said:

Is there a usual definition in law of "dying" as as far as I'm aware non of us are immortal?

Most language used in legislation is given its ordinary meaning. Far fetched, context free, and extreme readings of language are usually rejected.

[Amateurish]

Breadvan72 said:

Amateurish said:

Is it your contention that going on holiday is a reasonable excuse? If so, why?

Yes, because it's a reasonable thing to do, especially if already paid for. Reasonable is not a difficult concept. In any event, the burden lies on the prosecution, not on the defendant.

That really is begging the question

[NickCQ]

To put it another way, what would be an ‘unreasonable excuse’ for leaving home - going to lick some care home inmates?

[anonymous-user]

Amateurish said:

That really is begging the question

No it isn't. I get the impression that you might be low on experience of how the law works in real life.

[fido]

Amateurish said:

Breadvan72 said:

Amateurish said:

Is it your contention that going on holiday is a reasonable excuse? If so, why?

Yes, because it's a reasonable thing to do, especially if already paid for. Reasonable is not a difficult concept. In any event, the burden lies on the prosecution, not on the defendant.

That really is begging the question

It says is "People who live in Tier 4 are not permitted to travel internationally, except for “limited exceptions,” such as work reasons." That does not exclude holidays that have been paid for. So, erm, if you're asked at the airport the incorrect answer to "why are you travelling?" is "i am travelling for leisure"!

[zzrman]

fido said:

It says is "People who live in Tier 4 are not permitted to travel internationally, except for “limited exceptions,” such as work reasons." That does not exclude holidays that have been paid for. So, erm, if you're asked at the airport the incorrect answer to "why are you travelling?" is "i am travelling for leisure"!

I believe you are quoting the guidance not the Regulations which merely require you to have a reasonable excuse to leave your home. the guidance is not the law and is frequently at odds with the law - your quote being yet another example.

[Whoozit]

For the barrack room lawyers in this thread. Be very aware you are choosing between helping the country you live in, or indulging your own desires.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/27/ho...

[Oceanrower]

What about the real lawyers? Are they ok? Genuinely concerned...

[deeen]

Whoozit said:

For the barrack room lawyers in this thread. Be very aware you are choosing between helping the country you live in, or indulging your own desires.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/27/ho...

What if my desire is to stay within the law?

[zzrman]

Whoozit said:

For the barrack room lawyers in this thread. Be very aware you are choosing between helping the country you live in, or indulging your own desires.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/27/ho...

And who are the barrack room lawyers in this thread?

[Gman20]

deeen said:

What if my desire is to stay within the law?

Easiest way to do that is to stay home

[zzrman]

Gman20 said:

Easiest way to do that is to stay home

Unfortunately there is an economy to be kept running in the meantime and not everyone can work from home.

[deeen]

Gman20 said:

deeen said:

What if my desire is to stay within the law?

Easiest way to do that is to stay home

Until I can't pay the rent, or order in any food, because I didn't go out to work? I suppose if I manage to die of starvation at home before I get evicted I've met your criteria, but it's a moot point...

Edited by deeen on Sunday 27th December 22:46

[Gman20]

deeen said:

Until I can't pay the rent, or order in any food, because I didn't go out to work? I suppose if I manage to die of starvation at home before I get evicted I've met your criteria, but it's a moot point...

You are allowed to go out to work, if you desire, but you only mentioned your desire to stay within the law.

[zzrman]

Gman20 said:

You are allowed to go out to work, if you desire, but you only mentioned your desire to stay within the law.

Well he can stay within the law by undertaking either those activities expressly specified by the Regulations or by leaving his home for a purpose for which the excuse is reasonable. Staying at home is by far not the only means of staying within the law.

[deeen]

Gman20 said:

deeen said:

Until I can't pay the rent, or order in any food, because I didn't go out to work? I suppose if I manage to die of starvation at home before I get evicted I've met your criteria, but it's a moot point...

You are allowed to go out to work, if you desire, but you only mentioned your desire to stay within the law.

Well I didn't say it was my only desire, hence my RAA... Yes I hope to live life to its fullest within the law, and establishing that is the point of this thread.

[Gman20]

deeen said:

Well I didn't say it was my only desire, hence my RAA... Yes I hope to live life to its fullest within the law, and establishing that is the point of this thread.

If you don't have and desire to do anything that is not on the list of allowed things you don't need to worry about the finer details of the law.
If you do have a desire to do something not on the list, and will do it if there is any way you can do it and stay withing the law, it is disingenuous to just say your desire is to stay within the law.