Police BMW engine issues

[340600]

So if:

• Older N57-engined BMW's are either dangeous or require an unfeasible level of servicing to maintain safety
• Newer BMW's are unavailable as they have now pulled out of the emergency market altogether
• Volvo's are rubbish as police vehicles

Would it make too much sense to nominate Skoda as a national supplier to all forces? They seem to tick all the boxes from response up to RPU and are clearly pushing the emergency market.

The Skoda Superb 280 4x4 seems like the next best traffic car after a 530d xDrive?

https://www.skoda.co.uk/new-cars/superb/estate-spo...

https://www.skoda.co.uk/fleet/emergency-services

[Earthdweller]

340600 said:

So if:

• Older N57-engined BMW's are either dangeous or require an unfeasible level of servicing to maintain safety
• Newer BMW's are unavailable as they have now pulled out of the emergency market altogether
• Volvo's are rubbish as police vehicles

Would it make too much sense to nominate Skoda as a national supplier to all forces? They seem to tick all the boxes from response up to RPU and are clearly pushing the emergency market.

The Skoda Superb 280 4x4 seems like the next best traffic car after a 530d xDrive?

https://www.skoda.co.uk/new-cars/superb/estate-spo...

https://www.skoda.co.uk/fleet/emergency-services

Skoda are on the approved list and can be purchased

There is a framework provided with all the requirements the Police need to be met for each operational role

For instance ..

unit beat (panda car)
Cell van
High performance ( traffic/firearms/Advanced car )
Low performance plain car ( div CID etc )


Individual Forces or groups of Forces ( often on regional basis ) then put out for tender through the framework for the supply of vehicles normally for the next three years

Any manufacturer can enter a bid, only a very few do. Some i think don’t want their vehicles associated with public service roles or consider it not worth the hassle/value to them as a business

Beyond that, very few vehicles actually meet some of the more specific criteria such as the high performance ones set by the Police

[Southerner]

Earthdweller said:

Skoda are on the approved list and can be purchased

There is a framework provided with all the requirements the Police need to be met for each operational role

For instance ..

unit beat (panda car)
Cell van
High performance ( traffic/firearms/Advanced car )
Low performance plain car ( div CID etc )


Individual Forces or groups of Forces ( often on regional basis ) then put out for tender through the framework for the supply of vehicles normally for the next three years

Any manufacturer can enter a bid, only a very few do. Some i think don’t want their vehicles associated with public service roles or consider it not worth the hassle/value to them as a business

Beyond that, very few vehicles actually meet some of the more specific criteria such as the high performance ones set by the Police

So are we saying then that the forces can’t/don’t proactively approach specific manufacturers and place orders, instead everything has to go out to tender and then they pick through the results? Presumably there is a ‘mechanism’ which would allow them to proactively go shopping if none of the bids are acceptable?

[pavarotti1980]

Southerner said:

So are we saying then that the forces can’t/don’t proactively approach specific manufacturers and place orders, instead everything has to go out to tender and then they pick through the results? Presumably there is a ‘mechanism’ which would allow them to proactively go shopping if none of the bids are acceptable?

Public money (quite a bit) = proper tender processes for bulk buying = transparency in procurement

Although I am sure out of framework could be done in exceptional circumstances

[Earthdweller]

pavarotti1980 said:

Southerner said:

So are we saying then that the forces can’t/don’t proactively approach specific manufacturers and place orders, instead everything has to go out to tender and then they pick through the results? Presumably there is a ‘mechanism’ which would allow them to proactively go shopping if none of the bids are acceptable?

Public money (quite a bit) = proper tender processes for bulk buying = transparency in procurement

Although I am sure out of framework could be done in exceptional circumstances

True enough

Framework normally only applies to core fleet and some multi force tenders can involve the supply of over 1000 vehicles

It covers not only purchase price but also whole life costs and can also include equip for service and decommissioning/disposal

The tenders can run into millions

Low volume roles, specialist vehicles and covert fleet can be purchased outside framework

[aeropilot]

nordboy said:

I do wonder if BMW will re-enter the police market again?

I can't see it.

As has been mentioned, within a few years no mainstream manufacturer will be making any vehicles suitable for Police use as ARV's and fast pursuit/traffic etc use at all.

Govt/HO should be addressing this now for the future, but that requires forward planning, joined up thinking, and well, that's never going to happen. Some sort of joint HO/MOD type process (for all its faults!) might have to be looked at, which will allow a large order for all forces (despite the varying demands) and enough bespoke vehicles can be built in one go, allowing stuff to be put into storage, so potentially a once every 5 year production order.
But, I can't ever see a mainstream manufacturer bidding on such a thing once all EV based, so it might be that some of the more normally high end manufacturers that are still making ICE powerplants, would have the bespoke production ability to do such a thing?
In the same way as say Merc gets Steyr in Austria to make the G-Wagon perhaps?

As said though, Govt/HO joined up thinking about anything more than 6 months ahead is asking for miracles.

I know a few current serving and recently ex-serving, and all prefer the BM's, no one likes the newer Volvo's.

[stevemcs]

Given how many miles the average traffic car covers, i presume EV's are out of the question. Both in terms of range and how they handle abuse.

[dhutch]

My understanding is an EV is pretty up for abuse and high mileage. It's just the range/recharge that is the issue with current battery technology, in niche applications where the use profile is very high density. See also freight/lorries/etc.

Obviously there will be a long tail to the ICE for certain applications, including developing countries, but what that looks like for the UK police force is anyones guess.

Probably a route little similar to that of the hackney carriage where a low-medium volume specialist vehicle is produced. Likely a 'mild hybrid' aka boasted ICE. Could do worse than a 530D with KERS! Which would also be available to power the onboard equipment without prolonged idling.

[aeropilot]

stevemcs said:

Given how many miles the average traffic car covers, i presume EV's are out of the question. Both in terms of range and how they handle abuse.

I would expect so, just as they really are out of the question for the military (although its being looked at for mil use, but personally I can't see it being viable for that)

[BossHogg]

We will be trialling these EVs before long.

[Earthdweller]

aeropilot said:

stevemcs said:

Given how many miles the average traffic car covers, i presume EV's are out of the question. Both in terms of range and how they handle abuse.

I would expect so, just as they really are out of the question for the military (although its being looked at for mil use, but personally I can't see it being viable for that)

Some of ours would do 100k per year and be on the road 24/7 running 8k+ every month

Blue light runs could easily be 70 miles

Beyond that is the weight of the crew AND the kit carried which puts a lot of current large ICE cars very close to their max weight limit and rules quite a few out completely

The other concern is that the vehicles are frequently damaged and take quite hard impacts, as the saying goes “ one owner, original dashboard if you’re lucky”

EV’s seem to be written off if there is any concern that the battery packs may have been damaged

EV’s are considerably more expensive and I’d imagine you’d need far more of them to maintain the same coverage

[P0PC0RN]

The G series 530d's have been bullet proof for us and whilst they don't go as well as the f series 330d's (RIP) they are very good traffic cars (abit big for intercept stuff mind).

I have had some really 'interesting' chases in the 5's and they are fine until the roads become really twisty and your chasing something like a Fiesta ST....

My establishment looked at EV's (someone looking for a promotion) and it was knocked back by everyone:

-range on a busy shift not good enough
-would have to triple the fleet to allow for cars being charged
-they are not suitable for TPAC
-surprisingly the Models offered to us (Tesla) were deemed as lacking in performance and the next models up were cost prohibitive (word on the street)


We have been told to expect VAG group vehicles - we are hoping/have asked for the A4/A6 3.0 tdi jobbies

I fully expect that we will get a few Octavia VRS's which will then be packed to the gunnels with our kit and then struggle for performance...

We will see

[Earthdweller]

I was involved in evaluating EV’s for divisional use and that involved profiling the use of vehicles in various roles

We pretty much ruled them out for 24/7 response as the vehicles ( like traffic/ARV ) needed to be available continuously, they were also doing around 40-50k pa, around 1k per week

Neighbourhood vehicles were only doing around 10k pa and had a lot of downtime, particularly overnight when the community teams weren’t on duty and sometimes entire weekends if the team was on rest days. EV’s could work in that role but the practice of cascading high mileage vehicles from response to see out their time on neighbourhoods would preclude that (as below the cost of EV’s was prohibitive)

Divisional CID vehicles did very little mileage some as little as 5k-6k pa and spent 90% of their time idle and journeys were mostly less than 10miles. Again EV’s could work in that role, or certainly as part of a mix

However cost was prohibitive and the lack of low power EV’s also problematic for untrained driver’s as a lot of CID officers are (a low power Ford/VX/Peugeot could be bought for £10k v £30k+ for an i3) the Police have power bands for vehicles and driver bands, basic, response, advanced and if a vehicle is too fast/powerful it precludes its use by lesser trained drivers. My force for instance decided the BMW i3 needed an advanced trained driver

The other major consideration is cops themselves who especially in CID can’t even put petrol/diesel in the cars !

It was certainly an interesting project and I got to drive lots of different EV’s including some fully liveried ones

[aeropilot]

Earthdweller said:

The other major consideration is cops themselves who especially in CID can’t even put petrol/diesel in the cars !

My late father who did 30 years in the Met would have chortled at that.....

[agent006]

Gloucestershire have a fairly big fleet of Nissan Leafs, marked and unmarked. They don't seem to be used for any response work at all but for all the administrative pottering around that needs to be done. Been around for a good few years now so can't be too bad despite what the new PCC would like you to think.

[BossHogg]

I must admit, the trial Tesla looks quite smart.

[BlindedByTheLights]

BossHogg said:

We will be trialling these EVs before long.

They’ll be fine for cruising about at 55 popping cones out but I suspect useless to the police.

[Allegro_Snapon]

BossHogg said:

I must admit, the trial Tesla looks quite smart.

We tried battery cars on a site ICE wouldn't be allowed (hydrocarbon oil refinery). (Naysayers thought batteries still had enough elec spark anyway compared to ICE so this was a none benefit in theory).

Great idea, until the winter months and you needed lights and heat etc (this was Canada, the circumference of our plant was 42km).

I'd like to see a Channel 5 Cops Got Action where the Tesla runs out of catching up speed due o the Blue lights..........

[BossHogg]

BlindedByTheLights said:

They’ll be fine for cruising about at 55 popping cones out but I suspect useless to the police.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think they'll be suitable for us in Cumbria, especially with the distances involved, factor in weather, weight of kit and periods of inactivity, but I stand to be convinced to the contrary.

[BossHogg]

Allegro_Snapon said:

We tried battery cars on a site ICE wouldn't be allowed (hydrocarbon oil refinery). (Naysayers thought batteries still had enough elec spark anyway compared to ICE so this was a none benefit in theory).

Great idea, until the winter months and you needed lights and heat etc (this was Canada, the circumference of our plant was 42km).

I'd like to see a Channel 5 Cops Got Action where the Tesla runs out of catching up speed due o the Blue lights..........

The figures stated looked promising, but we know they can be fudged, apparently over 300 miles on a full charge, but there was no mention of two chunky bobbies in body armour and all the kit.