M25 variable speed limits - when does the reduced speed end?

[BertBert]

Heres Johnny said:

The signage is simply wrong.

And in the absence of correct signage, the limit that was attempted to be put in place by such signage cannot be the limit.
So ghertie can argue as much as he likes that one reduced speed limit sign lasts for ever, but clearly that is not the case, neither practically nor in law.
Bert

[Repel_Max]

Heres Johnny said:

Why do we keep assuming the road has to be correctly signed and then we try to interpret it? Its possible the road is incorrectly signed rather than its one speed or another.

I believe highways saying the speed limi doesn’t change until a sign saying it changes is what they should do. I certainly don’t believe an unlit sign is a sign a temporary restriction has ended, but signage disappearing throws into question the veracity of any speed restriction and once there is ambiguity the prosecution will lose, hence they don’t proceed with prosecutions.

The only interpretation needed is:
a. In a Variable Speed LImit (VSL) Motorway section a speed limit sign indicates the start of a speed limit.
b. The speed limit stays in force until you pass another sign with either 1. A different speed limit including NSL, 2. An illuminated END sign, 3. A permananet END of Variable Speed LImit sign

No other interpretation is required. This discussion has come-about because many commentators here WANT the speed limit to end when they think it should and not where the sign and the regulations say it ends.

An unlit AMI is not a road sign, only what is illuminated on the AMI or MS4 is a road sign. No illumination of a statutory road sign diagram on an AMI = NOT A SIGN!!! so the speed limit does not alter where an unlit AMI is on the road.

Heres Johnny said:

The defence for the driver would be ‘I’d driven for over 2 miles without any speed restriction signs including past several unlit digital signage...’ is an argument of mitigation a judge may accept as a reasonable defence if the highways agency managed to argue what the technical limit was. The argument is thinner if it was driving for half a mile and past one unlit gantry, stronger to the point of absurdity it was anything but true if it was 20 miles.

That could be advanced in a case, you are right, so can "I didn't see the sign", "the sign said 50 not 40", "I thought an NSL was on the next gantry so accelerated up to that speed", "I didn't have time to slow down", "An HGV was right behind me pushing me along", "I thought the unlit AMI meant NSL"...
A competent prosecutor and bench would correctly reject these however some accept these. Everyone is entitled to a defence.
Your suggestion is on a par with the examples I have given, altogether dubious and weak. The last one is just completely wrong.

Heres Johnny said:

What I’m saying is the road becomes incorrectly marked for either limit, the changing rules on repeaters increases ambiguity but reducing it to absurdity a temporary limit as you leave London on the M1 doesn’t stay in force until Yorkshire without another sign. The signage is simply wrong.

Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 11th February 08:05

I am familiar with every VSL in England, Wales and Scotland, none are 100s of miles long, they all have defined start and end points with the longest being a few 10s of miles. All of them have clear indications of speed limits and lane restrictions and all have clearly defined start and END points. All that is required now is for drivers, especially those who regard it as a passion or with pride, is to learn and accept the rules. Happy to help.

Edited by Repel_Max on Monday 11th February 09:49

[jamei303]

Repel_Max said:

The only interpretation needed is:
a. In a Variable Speed LImit (VSL) Motorway section a speed limit sign indicates the start of a speed limit.
b. The speed limit stays in force until you pass another sign with either 1. A different speed limit including NSL, 2. An illuminated END sign, 3. A permananet END of Variable Speed LImit sign

Not quite true. A permanent "End of Variable Speed Limit" sign is not needed. The limit ends when the section of road governed by the variable speed limit regulations ends:

2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.

The regulations are very specific about where the start and end points are. For example this is from the Schedule to the The M1 Motorway (Junctions 25 to 28) (Variable Speed Limits) Regulations 2011:

"the northbound carriageway of the M1 beginning at a point which is 43 metres after marker post 193/6 and 48 metres before marker post 193/7, and ending at a point which is 28 metres after marker post 217/5 and 80 metres before marker post 217/6"

Edited by jamei303 on Monday 11th February 09:55

[Jimi.K.]

While what many have written about needing a NSL sign might be technically true, in reality they frequently forget to illuminate a NSL symbol at the end of a variable stretch, so everyone could be stuck doing 40mph for hours if they followed this logic. The absence of a lower limit on the gantries is the only thing for the motorist to go on, and most motorists seem to have enough common sense to speed up when they pass under an inactive gantry.

Also I'm fairly sure a gantry camera would only snap you for anything less than 79mph if a variable limit is displayed on that particular gantry at the time, so there's very little risk of a ticket even if you're wrong and a mile up the road the variable limit is displayed again.

Edited by Jimi.K. on Monday 11th February 10:14

[Heres Johnny]

Repel_Max said:

I am familiar with every VSL in England, Wales and Scotland, none are 100s of miles long, they all have defined start and end points with the longest being a few 10s of miles. All of them have clear indications of speed limits and lane restrictions and all have clearly defined start and END points. All that is required now is for drivers, especially those who regard it as a passion or with pride, is to learn and accept the rules. Happy to help.

Edited by Repel_Max on Monday 11th February 09:49

You are wrong whether you like it or not as you are refusing to allow for mistakes which leads to ambiguity.

I will give you a case in point. As you know the roads incredibly well...

You're driving North on the M6 in the VSL area where the Toll road (which does not have VSL) and the M6 which does at that point. The M6 has a 60 posted but then due to a mistake or equipment failure fails to return to 70. The M6toll merges, which was a 70 limit.. whats the limit? (the end of the toll does have VSL but thats to match the main M6, and in this case its not illuminated, either because its failed or because the M6 had failed to signal a return to 70)

Whats the limit if the cancellation of a lower limit has failed to be posted and any junction after the last lower posted speed and where the motorist has joined? There is no way to determine the speed limit.

The road can be incorrectly signed, end of. There's no ifs and buts, it can happen even if by accident or failure.

I've seen another example which is quite laughable, in a VSL are where there are road works I've seen gantries displaying 40 with a road sign just after the gantry displaying 50. I'd love to see them try to enforce the 40 after the 50 sign.

[Heres Johnny]

Repel_Max said:

BertBert said:

Repel_Max said:

The restriction stays in force until a sign says it has ended.

So how long can it go on without repeaters then?
Bert

Until there is a sign that says END

You may want to read the guidance which talks about a 20% variability in distance but for a motorway, the gap is 1km and lower if the speed limit on a dual carriageway or motorway drops below 60

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

The regulations talk about 40mph roads not requiring repeaters in street lit area - for the reasons I gave further above as it fails safe

[Graveworm]

Repel_Max said:

Until there is a sign that says END

So in the event of the fault there is a situation where some vehicles are subject to the restriction, but those that joined after the last functional sign are not? Does it still apply to those who get fuel at the services?
Not to mention if the person taking the decision to impose the restriction decided it had ended - a fault or human error would, in effect, be imposing a limit.

Edited by Graveworm on Monday 11th February 10:47

Edited by Graveworm on Monday 11th February 11:12

[jamei303]

Heres Johnny said:

You may want to read the guidance which talks about a 20% variability in distance but for a motorway, the gap is 1km and lower if the speed limit on a dual carriageway or motorway drops below 60

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

The regulations talk about 40mph roads not requiring repeaters in street lit area - for the reasons I gave further above as it fails safe

That's irrelevant, variable limit motorways are governed by specific legislation that doesn't require repeaters. The chapter you linked to in the TSM refers only to fixed repeaters.

[Andy S15]

There's enough discussion here to really show that there's too much ambiguity in this system and should really be clarified. The law should be easy to follow here, not convoluted. To be honest, before reading this thread I really thought this was a simple thing - no signs = NSL. When you check the government info, they literally state:

'If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.'

(https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smart-motorway#speed-limits)

The attached 'Smart Motorways Leaflet' on the same page also states:

'When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place and can be enforced by police'

And:

'All mandatory speed limits are enforced by police, as is the national speed limit of 70mph when no speeds are shown.'

There is no exploration into stretches of road with and without limits, purely the above. If it really is more complicated than this, then there needs to be further official clarification (not by people in this thread, by the gov!) especially as there is already a precedent that motorways have different speed limit rules to other roads in the country, regarding lamp post spacing for example.

When this information is handed out by the government it's not hard to see why motorists take any unlit sign, even if amongst other lit signs as back to NSL, as I will also continue to do.

[jamei303]

Heres Johnny said:

You are wrong whether you like it or not as you are refusing to allow for mistakes which leads to ambiguity.

I will give you a case in point. As you know the roads incredibly well...

You're driving North on the M6 in the VSL area where the Toll road (which does not have VSL) and the M6 which does at that point. The M6 has a 60 posted but then due to a mistake or equipment failure fails to return to 70. The M6toll merges, which was a 70 limit.. whats the limit? (the end of the toll does have VSL but thats to match the main M6, and in this case its not illuminated, either because its failed or because the M6 had failed to signal a return to 70)

Whats the limit if the cancellation of a lower limit has failed to be posted and any junction after the last lower posted speed and where the motorist has joined? There is no way to determine the speed limit.

The road can be incorrectly signed, end of. There's no ifs and buts, it can happen even if by accident or failure.

I've seen another example which is quite laughable, in a VSL are where there are road works I've seen gantries displaying 40 with a road sign just after the gantry displaying 50. I'd love to see them try to enforce the 40 after the 50 sign.

The legislation quite clear that different speeds apply to different vehicles travelling on the same road, depending on what sign they passed.

In your example the The M6 Motorway (Junctions 10a to 13)(Variable Speed Limits) Regulations 2015 specify that for a vehicle originating on the M6 northbound and passing a 60 sign, the speed limit would remain at 60,i in the absence of other signs, until they passed "the southern edge of the bridge carrying Ash Flats Lane over the M6". For a vehicle originating on the M6 Toll the limit would be 70 unless the gantry shortly after the A460 bridge indicated otherwise.

Edited by jamei303 on Monday 11th February 11:19

[Heres Johnny]

jamei303 said:

The legislation quite clear that different speeds apply to different vehicles travelling on the same road, depending on what sign they passed.

In your example the The M6 Motorway (Junctions 10a to 13)(Variable Speed Limits) Regulations 2015 specify that for a vehicle originating on the M6 northbound and passing a 60 sign, the speed limit would remain at 60,i in the absence of other signs, until they passed "the southern edge of the bridge carrying Ash Flats Lane over the M6". For a vehicle originating on the M6 Toll the limit would be 70 unless the gantry shortly after the A460 bridge indicated otherwise.

Edited by jamei303 on Monday 11th February 11:19

Do you want to read that again, and then comment on how it should be enforced or how stupid and dangerous it would be for cars to have two different speed limits on the same road?

Can you also post the link to the legislation or guidance pertaining to VSL so we can read it

[jamei303]

Heres Johnny said:

Do you want to read that again, and then comment on how it should be enforced or how stupid and dangerous it would be for cars to have two different speed limits on the same road?

Can you also post the link to the legislation or guidance pertaining to VSL so we can read it

Trucks, vans, coaches, cars, caravans all have different different speed limits on the same road. It's not exactly unusual.

The law pertaining to VSL roads I mentioned above. There isn't one single piece of legislation but a separate one for each stretch of motorway but essentially they all contain the common terms I pasted above

Have a read: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

note the accompanying schedule specifying the exact bits of road: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/schedu...

[Heres Johnny]

Great - so now we have to consult to see if a stretch of road is named in a schedule and determine where it ends.

[jamei303]

Heres Johnny said:

Great - so now we have to consult to see if a stretch of road is named in a schedule and determine where it ends.

Only if the signage is unclear, but that's been the case with Traffic Regulation Orders since forever (e.g. what is an authorised bus? what local exclusions are there for an "except for access" sign? etc etc)

[Heres Johnny]

jamei303 said:

Heres Johnny said:

Great - so now we have to consult to see if a stretch of road is named in a schedule and determine where it ends.

Only if the signage is unclear, but that's been the case with Traffic Regulation Orders since forever (e.g. what is an authorised bus? what local exclusions are there for an "except for access" sign? etc etc)

And that's my point - if the markings are unclear, its not correctly signed.

Without correct signage you can't know if you're in a VSL area, therefore it would be impossible to prosecute someone on the basis it was. Without correct signage the motorway is like any other motorway.

So you can't take the stance that the last speed limit seen lasts forever in a VSL without being able to demonstrate it is still a VSL, and if you can't demonstrate a VSL is a VSL then its is reasonable to believe it is a regular motorway.

Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 11th February 13:05

[thecremeegg]

Graveworm said:

So in the event of the fault there is a situation where some vehicles are subject to the restriction, but those that joined after the last functional sign are not? Does it still apply to those who get fuel at the services?
Not to mention if the person taking the decision to impose the restriction decided it had ended - a fault or human error would, in effect, be imposing a limit.

Edited by Graveworm on Monday 11th February 10:47

Edited by Graveworm on Monday 11th February 11:12

Nail on head.
I think we can just agree that TECHNICALLY you should wait to see an NSL sign on a gantry before speeding up, however in the real world where many of us reside, we will just accept that the people controlling the sings are morons and therefore we shall use common sense and speed up to 70(lol) again.

No more to it than that surely?

[vonhosen]

Heres Johnny said:

jamei303 said:

Heres Johnny said:

Great - so now we have to consult to see if a stretch of road is named in a schedule and determine where it ends.

Only if the signage is unclear, but that's been the case with Traffic Regulation Orders since forever (e.g. what is an authorised bus? what local exclusions are there for an "except for access" sign? etc etc)

And that's my point - if the markings are unclear, its not correctly signed.

Without correct signage you can't know if you're in a VSL area, therefore it would be impossible to prosecute someone on the basis it was. Without correct signage the motorway is like any other motorway.

So you can't take the stance that the last speed limit seen lasts forever in a VSL without being able to demonstrate it is still a VSL, and if you can't demonstrate a VSL is a VSL then its is reasonable to believe it is a regular motorway.

But although we make the choice about how fast we are going to travel the Court decides what the actual limit in place was at the time because they make a determination as to whether signage was adequate/correct (on an individual case by case basis).

[ashleyman]

Let's say you go through a couple gantries that all have 40 showing, then you get to the next one and there is no speed limit shown according to some on here technically you're supposed to stay at 40 as no sign = same limit because no END or NSL Sign.

What's stopping you leaving the motorway at the next junction, and re-joining the same road. So long as no speed limits are shown when re-joining the motorway the standard speed of 70 is applied.

That's one way to get round it.

I think with the new cameras they take a photo of the car passing under the gantry with the speed showing, if there is no speed showing on the screen but the ticket comes through for say 50 in a 70 then how can that be enforced if even their own screen doesn't show an alternative limit.

Personally, if I see a blank sign I usually just treat it as NSL and so far haven't had anything nasty through the post.

[Repel_Max]

jamei303 said:

Repel_Max said:

The only interpretation needed is:
a. In a Variable Speed LImit (VSL) Motorway section a speed limit sign indicates the start of a speed limit.
b. The speed limit stays in force until you pass another sign with either 1. A different speed limit including NSL, 2. An illuminated END sign, 3. A permananet END of Variable Speed LImit sign

Not quite true. A permanent "End of Variable Speed Limit" sign is not needed. The limit ends when the section of road governed by the variable speed limit regulations ends:

2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.

The regulations are very specific about where the start and end points are. For example this is from the Schedule to the The M1 Motorway (Junctions 25 to 28) (Variable Speed Limits) Regulations 2011:

"the northbound carriageway of the M1 beginning at a point which is 43 metres after marker post 193/6 and 48 metres before marker post 193/7, and ending at a point which is 28 metres after marker post 217/5 and 80 metres before marker post 217/6"

Edited by jamei303 on Monday 11th February 09:55

I dodn't say it was needed. I said it was one of the signs that could signal the end of a restriction.

[Repel_Max]

Jimi.K. said:

While what many have written about needing a NSL sign might be technically true, in reality they frequently forget to illuminate a NSL symbol at the end of a variable stretch, so everyone could be stuck doing 40mph for hours if they followed this logic. The absence of a lower limit on the gantries is the only thing for the motorist to go on, and most motorists seem to have enough common sense to speed up when they pass under an inactive gantry.

Also I'm fairly sure a gantry camera would only snap you for anything less than 79mph if a variable limit is displayed on that particular gantry at the time, so there's very little risk of a ticket even if you're wrong and a mile up the road the variable limit is displayed again.

Edited by Jimi.K. on Monday 11th February 10:14

You wouldn't go for hours though would you. You would reach a permanent End of VSL sign at the end of the VSL area.
You didn't read the options did you?