Leon Briggs Death in custody misconduct hearing collapses.
Discussion
vaud said:
Though to your point Derek, the Germans do have a fundamentally different view about the state and companies holding data on them.
Not different to me they don't. Given their history, it's not too difficult to see why they are concerned.
It's strange, though. After working with PACE for 17 or so years, the attitude of some foreign police forces with regards the treatment of suspects seemed to be out of step with accepted morals. England/Wales police mainly support body cameras, perhaps not so much to protect the public but themselves. One can't help but wonder what the problem is with CCTV recording of interviews. If anything, it has limited the defences' ability to challenge confessions at court. As for complaints against police, the CCTV is seen as armour plate by most officers.
There does seem to be a disconnect between what the public believe what happens and what happens. I was speaking with a journalist, not a friend, about PACE and mentioned that, from all the forces whose procedures I've got some knowledge of, I'd pick the English/Welsh forces if I was arrested for an offence I hadn't committed or had. He was a trifle biased - he'd read a book that was more than a trifle biased - and I was trying to explain different systems, but he got angry and almost shouted at me, 'What about Hillsborough?'
It was very odd. It's obviously something that upset him, but from what I know, I don't think the treatment of prisoners was a major factor. There are lots of replies I could have used, but it was the end of a long day.
XCP said:
Makes one wonder what the situation is like in Belgium. Mind you, he doesn't have a problem with the Belgian police.
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/03/dutch-corona-ambulance-stopped-and-told-to-pay-e6-toll-at-belgian-tunnel/?fbclid=IwAR2EWjarOEmQnj9fM56y5ZAxAcioiVkPJvMDyRTSClc8P9DNDdag5S3PDb0Does this apply to the OP
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ar...
red said:
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/03/dutch-corona...
Does this apply to the OP
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ar...
NopeDoes this apply to the OP
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ar...
But maybe one of these does......
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wa...
Absolute joke this has taken this many years for all involved:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-h...
The police should have done better, but then dealing with someone who is psychotic, loaded up on amphetamines and has a serious underlying heart condition is fraught with risk, regardless of anything else.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-h...
The police should have done better, but then dealing with someone who is psychotic, loaded up on amphetamines and has a serious underlying heart condition is fraught with risk, regardless of anything else.
La Liga said:
Absolute joke this has taken this many years for all involved:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-h...
The police should have done better, but then dealing with someone who is psychotic, loaded up on amphetamines and has a serious underlying heart condition is fraught with risk, regardless of anything else.
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-h...
The police should have done better, but then dealing with someone who is psychotic, loaded up on amphetamines and has a serious underlying heart condition is fraught with risk, regardless of anything else.
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
La Liga said:
Absolute joke this has taken this many years for all involved:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-h...
The police should have done better, but then dealing with someone who is psychotic, loaded up on amphetamines and has a serious underlying heart condition is fraught with risk, regardless of anything else.
The issue of EBD wasn't well known 5/6 years ago. This has since been addressed by training given to Police and agreements with local Ambulance Services.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-h...
The police should have done better, but then dealing with someone who is psychotic, loaded up on amphetamines and has a serious underlying heart condition is fraught with risk, regardless of anything else.
Let's remember, the Police aren't medically trained (1st Aid being an annual one day refresher).
A subjects previous medical conditions are very unlike to be known to Police attending.
They might be known by the Ambulance Service, that were in attendance in this case, but as we've heard, they "could have done better" by passing information to Police.
I've had an 18month a investigation for a very similar situation (only difference being, Ambulance never attended).
It's not a good place to be in, as a Police Officer doing the best I can, for the family not knowing what happened before Police arrived or what action was taken, or for the (now) patient that will have lifelong complications as a result of the incident.
Would we have done things differently? Not back then.
I can't help but feel that there is nowhere to take someone off their tits on drugs that is going to do anything but make someone else responsible in the eyes of the inept parents that have let their kids get to the position that that is somehow seen as acceptable.
If she'd put half the effort into his life that she put into his death he'd probably still be wandering amongst us.
If she'd put half the effort into his life that she put into his death he'd probably still be wandering amongst us.
eldar said:
La Liga said:
Absolute joke this has taken this many years for all involved:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-h...
The police should have done better, but then dealing with someone who is psychotic, loaded up on amphetamines and has a serious underlying heart condition is fraught with risk, regardless of anything else.
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-h...
The police should have done better, but then dealing with someone who is psychotic, loaded up on amphetamines and has a serious underlying heart condition is fraught with risk, regardless of anything else.
Beingbin crisis is NOT a criminal offence.
But it would be interesting to see how some MH professionals would handle a 6'4" 18 stone drug fuelled hulk.
Nibbles_bits said:
But it would be interesting to see how some MH professionals would handle a 6'4" 18 stone drug fuelled hulk.
With the same restraints that the police used, and they'd be the ones on 6 years of paid torture not the police. The guy was dying no matter who carried him around or how.Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Given that he was taken to a Police Station and placed in a cell, to me it would suggest the latter.
Nibbles_bits said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Given that he was taken to a Police Station and placed in a cell, to me it would suggest the latter.
Nibbles_bits said:
The issue of EBD wasn't well known 5/6 years ago. This has since been addressed by training given to Police and agreements with local Ambulance Services.
Let's remember, the Police aren't medically trained (1st Aid being an annual one day refresher).
A subjects previous medical conditions are very unlike to be known to Police attending.
They might be known by the Ambulance Service, that were in attendance in this case, but as we've heard, they "could have done better" by passing information to Police.
I've had an 18month a investigation for a very similar situation (only difference being, Ambulance never attended).
It's not a good place to be in, as a Police Officer doing the best I can, for the family not knowing what happened before Police arrived or what action was taken, or for the (now) patient that will have lifelong complications as a result of the incident.
Would we have done things differently? Not back then.
It's very easy in hindsight to judge, and I agree, the world has moved on a fair bit since 2013 (I was also a police officer back then). Let's remember, the Police aren't medically trained (1st Aid being an annual one day refresher).
A subjects previous medical conditions are very unlike to be known to Police attending.
They might be known by the Ambulance Service, that were in attendance in this case, but as we've heard, they "could have done better" by passing information to Police.
I've had an 18month a investigation for a very similar situation (only difference being, Ambulance never attended).
It's not a good place to be in, as a Police Officer doing the best I can, for the family not knowing what happened before Police arrived or what action was taken, or for the (now) patient that will have lifelong complications as a result of the incident.
Would we have done things differently? Not back then.
Nibbles_bits said:
Was he detained 136MHA?? Or arrested for a Criminal Offence.
Given that he was taken to a Police Station and placed in a cell, to me it would suggest the latter.
Police can detain under section 136. Doesn't need to be any specific criminal activity although the nature of needing to detain someone may well lead to the patient resisting or using violence which in itself could be criminal. Given that he was taken to a Police Station and placed in a cell, to me it would suggest the latter.
A lot of MH hospitals used to have specific 136 suites so the police can bring people like that to be assessed.
It is a pathetic total and utter failure of the MH system that means the police are basically being forced to be temporary MH nurses which simply is not a job they are trained for nor meant to be doing.
However while the public continue to redicule mental health and it continues to be a non-vote winner, nothing will change. MH services have gone massively backwards in the last 10-15 years due to chronic underfunding.
Psycho Warren said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Was he detained 136MHA?? Or arrested for a Criminal Offence.
Given that he was taken to a Police Station and placed in a cell, to me it would suggest the latter.
Police can detain under section 136. Doesn't need to be any specific criminal activity although the nature of needing to detain someone may well lead to the patient resisting or using violence which in itself could be criminal. Given that he was taken to a Police Station and placed in a cell, to me it would suggest the latter.
A lot of MH hospitals used to have specific 136 suites so the police can bring people like that to be assessed.
It is a pathetic total and utter failure of the MH system that means the police are basically being forced to be temporary MH nurses which simply is not a job they are trained for nor meant to be doing.
However while the public continue to redicule mental health and it continues to be a non-vote winner, nothing will change. MH services have gone massively backwards in the last 10-15 years due to chronic underfunding.
But SHOULD the Police be put in the position to use MHA in the first place?
No, is the simple answer. But there aren't enough MH Professionals to go, so like most things, it falls to the Police.
Greendubber said:
Pegscratch said:
On another subject, does this whole Brexit thing mean no more davidball? That in itself has to be seen as worth any fallout from it, surely.
Banned! CharlesdeGaulle said:
Greendubber said:
Pegscratch said:
On another subject, does this whole Brexit thing mean no more davidball? That in itself has to be seen as worth any fallout from it, surely.
Banned! Whilst amusing it was always the same predictable rubbish that didn't actually contribute anything.
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