Used car issues - Who's liable?
Discussion
So, a fairly complicated car purchase has left me with a car that needs a few issues resolved. I just can't work out where the liability lies.
The chain of events went as follows:
- I saw the car advertised by a dealer 200 miles away
- After making some enquiries with the dealer and the specialist who'd maintained it, I placed a small deposit by bank transfer
- I then asked the specialist to inspect it, with a view that I'd buy if their feedback was positive
- The specialist collected the car from the dealer, inspected it, and gave me a list of recommended work
- I commissioned the specialist to do the work, which included a gearbox service (this might be important) and paid them directly
- The specialist returned the car to the dealer, and I collected, paying the balance by bank transfer
In the two weeks I've had it, a number of common faults have become apparent, none of which relate to work completed by the specialist.
Where do I stand legally?
The dealer seems like a decent guy, but I suspect he'd probably call my bluff and offer to buy the car back. Is he obliged to resolve the issue before that? Or is it an either/or scenario?
Does the specialist's inspection absolve the dealer of responsibility? (i.e. he has "proof" that the faults weren't there at time of purchase)
Should I just accept my lumps and get my wallet out?
Thanks in advance?
The chain of events went as follows:
- I saw the car advertised by a dealer 200 miles away
- After making some enquiries with the dealer and the specialist who'd maintained it, I placed a small deposit by bank transfer
- I then asked the specialist to inspect it, with a view that I'd buy if their feedback was positive
- The specialist collected the car from the dealer, inspected it, and gave me a list of recommended work
- I commissioned the specialist to do the work, which included a gearbox service (this might be important) and paid them directly
- The specialist returned the car to the dealer, and I collected, paying the balance by bank transfer
In the two weeks I've had it, a number of common faults have become apparent, none of which relate to work completed by the specialist.
Where do I stand legally?
The dealer seems like a decent guy, but I suspect he'd probably call my bluff and offer to buy the car back. Is he obliged to resolve the issue before that? Or is it an either/or scenario?
Does the specialist's inspection absolve the dealer of responsibility? (i.e. he has "proof" that the faults weren't there at time of purchase)
Should I just accept my lumps and get my wallet out?
Thanks in advance?
Edited by C70R on Friday 22 July 10:25
Edited by C70R on Saturday 23 July 09:22
What are the 'faults'?
It's odd you commissioned a bunch of work on a vehicle you seemingly didn't legally own at the time, both from your point of view and the dealers. As an ex used salesman myself, we would've required balance in full prior to allowing a third party to undertake work on a car. Whose to say they couldn't use the wrong fluids, drop a nut into the intake, forget to tighten a filter etc (purely hypothetical for the sake of argument)
What would have happened in the scenario that you had paid for remedial works, gone to view the vehicle and the condition or specification just wasn't for you? I would've used the specialist report as leverage prior to purchase to maybe drop the price, settled the balance and then taken the vehicle to have the work done.
If the dealer has a copy of the 'report' and the faults you've highlighted are not present, it certainly wouldn't harm his case. It is up to them to prove they weren't there at the time of purchase and that the car is fit for purpose (this is a very broad term and has many variables)
Personally, and in my experience, I would call the dealer and explain the scenario. He might be quite happy to have a look at the faults. I'm always baffled with threads like these when the person hasn't just simply called the dealer as the first action. His attitude and actions after that phone call will dictate your next move.
It's odd you commissioned a bunch of work on a vehicle you seemingly didn't legally own at the time, both from your point of view and the dealers. As an ex used salesman myself, we would've required balance in full prior to allowing a third party to undertake work on a car. Whose to say they couldn't use the wrong fluids, drop a nut into the intake, forget to tighten a filter etc (purely hypothetical for the sake of argument)
What would have happened in the scenario that you had paid for remedial works, gone to view the vehicle and the condition or specification just wasn't for you? I would've used the specialist report as leverage prior to purchase to maybe drop the price, settled the balance and then taken the vehicle to have the work done.
If the dealer has a copy of the 'report' and the faults you've highlighted are not present, it certainly wouldn't harm his case. It is up to them to prove they weren't there at the time of purchase and that the car is fit for purpose (this is a very broad term and has many variables)
Personally, and in my experience, I would call the dealer and explain the scenario. He might be quite happy to have a look at the faults. I'm always baffled with threads like these when the person hasn't just simply called the dealer as the first action. His attitude and actions after that phone call will dictate your next move.
Canon_Fodder said:
Jimmy No Hands said:
It's odd you commissioned a bunch of work on a vehicle you seemingly didn't legally own at the time, both from your point of view and the dealers. .
'Odd' is an understatement...Jimmy No Hands said:
What are the 'faults'?
It's odd you commissioned a bunch of work on a vehicle you seemingly didn't legally own at the time, both from your point of view and the dealers. As an ex used salesman myself, we would've required balance in full prior to allowing a third party to undertake work on a car. Whose to say they couldn't use the wrong fluids, drop a nut into the intake, forget to tighten a filter etc (purely hypothetical for the sake of argument)
What would have happened in the scenario that you had paid for remedial works, gone to view the vehicle and the condition or specification just wasn't for you? I would've used the specialist report as leverage prior to purchase to maybe drop the price, settled the balance and then taken the vehicle to have the work done.
If the dealer has a copy of the 'report' and the faults you've highlighted are not present, it certainly wouldn't harm his case. It is up to them to prove they weren't there at the time of purchase and that the car is fit for purpose (this is a very broad term and has many variables)
Personally, and in my experience, I would call the dealer and explain the scenario. He might be quite happy to have a look at the faults. I'm always baffled with threads like these when the person hasn't just simply called the dealer as the first action. His attitude and actions after that phone call will dictate your next move.
So the fault appears to be a dead alternator, but they have a habit of causing other symptoms that manifest as apparent electrical gremlins. It's odd you commissioned a bunch of work on a vehicle you seemingly didn't legally own at the time, both from your point of view and the dealers. As an ex used salesman myself, we would've required balance in full prior to allowing a third party to undertake work on a car. Whose to say they couldn't use the wrong fluids, drop a nut into the intake, forget to tighten a filter etc (purely hypothetical for the sake of argument)
What would have happened in the scenario that you had paid for remedial works, gone to view the vehicle and the condition or specification just wasn't for you? I would've used the specialist report as leverage prior to purchase to maybe drop the price, settled the balance and then taken the vehicle to have the work done.
If the dealer has a copy of the 'report' and the faults you've highlighted are not present, it certainly wouldn't harm his case. It is up to them to prove they weren't there at the time of purchase and that the car is fit for purpose (this is a very broad term and has many variables)
Personally, and in my experience, I would call the dealer and explain the scenario. He might be quite happy to have a look at the faults. I'm always baffled with threads like these when the person hasn't just simply called the dealer as the first action. His attitude and actions after that phone call will dictate your next move.
The inspection and report made no mention of its condition. The report itself focused on recommended remedial works.
I spotted the issue this morning, called the dealer and left a message explaining the situation, and got a message saying he would call me this afternoon.
I'm sure he'll be reasonable, but I'm just doing some research in advance of that conversation.
The dealer is a one-man band, although a very successful one based on his Autotrader feedback. I suspect he wouldn't "look at" anything himself, and would likely send it to the specialist (they had no relationship prior to me buying the car) if I returned to him.
Canon_Fodder said:
OP what I mean is that I'm surprised the dealer let a 3rd party (your specialist) take the car away and work on it without there being any sort of formal agreement to buy in place.
Does the dealer know your specialist?
He didn't. They are both based in a suburb of Manchester, and the car sales/servicing community seems reasonably close-knit. Does the dealer know your specialist?
The dealer was selling on behalf of the previous owner's widow, and the specialist had maintained the car all of its life.
It was pretty straightforward to arrange on good faith.
C70R said:
.
It was pretty straightforward to arrange on good faith.
I see, thanks.It was pretty straightforward to arrange on good faith.
It's an unusual one... I doubt that you having had the car professionally examined 'absolves' the dealer of his normal consumer rights obligations and so he should repair the fault as it's not really credible for him to blame the specialist for a failed alternator.
Gearbox issues - after the specialist's gearbox service - might be another matter
Doing things on the basis that all parties act in good faith is civilised and often efficient, but can potentially get a bit messy.
IANAL (!) but it sounds to me like the work you had done on the car was effectively a gift to the previous owner's widow as she still owned the car at the time. You then bought the car, so whatever legal responsibility the dealer owes you to provide you with a car that works or at least disclose whatever is knackered would be with respect to the state of the car at that time that you bought it regardless of who has worked on it previously or who paid has paid for work on it previously.
So if the dealer says, "screw it, I'm not fixing that ash tray, here's your money back, the sale is cancelled", I imagine you've got no recourse for the money you spent with specialist. But with luck everyone will continue to try to act in good faith and be fair with each other.
IANAL (!) but it sounds to me like the work you had done on the car was effectively a gift to the previous owner's widow as she still owned the car at the time. You then bought the car, so whatever legal responsibility the dealer owes you to provide you with a car that works or at least disclose whatever is knackered would be with respect to the state of the car at that time that you bought it regardless of who has worked on it previously or who paid has paid for work on it previously.
So if the dealer says, "screw it, I'm not fixing that ash tray, here's your money back, the sale is cancelled", I imagine you've got no recourse for the money you spent with specialist. But with luck everyone will continue to try to act in good faith and be fair with each other.
BertBert said:
Surely this is really simple? You have bought a used car from a dealer, you have problems, they have obligations. The whole inspection/work thing is a red herring (assuming the works aren't at fault and the works didn't cause the issues).
You've never worked in the trade, have you? Nothing is simple, this situation is far from it. An alternator is a consumable, they can fail at any stage. I'd maybe anticipate some goodwill (maybe pay for labour) from the dealer due to how quickly it has manifested, but the fact is it's a routinely replaced part, especially on a used vehicle. It's unlikely to be covered in a third party warranty.
C70R said:
Canon_Fodder said:
OP what I mean is that I'm surprised the dealer let a 3rd party (your specialist) take the car away and work on it without there being any sort of formal agreement to buy in place.
Does the dealer know your specialist?
He didn't. They are both based in a suburb of Manchester, and the car sales/servicing community seems reasonably close-knit. Does the dealer know your specialist?
The dealer was selling on behalf of the previous owner's widow, and the specialist had maintained the car all of its life.
It was pretty straightforward to arrange on good faith.
KungFuPanda said:
C70R said:
Canon_Fodder said:
OP what I mean is that I'm surprised the dealer let a 3rd party (your specialist) take the car away and work on it without there being any sort of formal agreement to buy in place.
Does the dealer know your specialist?
He didn't. They are both based in a suburb of Manchester, and the car sales/servicing community seems reasonably close-knit. Does the dealer know your specialist?
The dealer was selling on behalf of the previous owner's widow, and the specialist had maintained the car all of its life.
It was pretty straightforward to arrange on good faith.
Jimmy No Hands said:
BertBert said:
Surely this is really simple? You have bought a used car from a dealer, you have problems, they have obligations. The whole inspection/work thing is a red herring (assuming the works aren't at fault and the works didn't cause the issues).
You've never worked in the trade, have you? Nothing is simple, this situation is far from it. An alternator is a consumable, they can fail at any stage. I'd maybe anticipate some goodwill (maybe pay for labour) from the dealer due to how quickly it has manifested, but the fact is it's a routinely replaced part, especially on a used vehicle. It's unlikely to be covered in a third party warranty.
It's got nothing to do with warranties. Please only contribute if you understand this stuff.
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