Unique Tax Reference Number - disclosure to third party?
Discussion
I have recently done some work for a national organisation, but before they will pay me, they want my Unique Tax Reference Number.
I called my accountants fpr it, as I do not keep it to hand, and they say I should not disclose it to anyone other than the HMRC, as with it, any Tom, Dick or Harry could call the tax office and pretend to be me!
I have looked on the HMRC web site, but if it has the right information, it is not found easily... I have a business to run!
The email from my clients accounts dept. says:
I wouldn't care if they DID report it to the HMRC... but given that they don't, that seems all the more reason not to provide it!
I presume this has to do with measures to combat money laundering... am I under any legal obligation to provide the UTR number?
They DO have my VAT number.
I called my accountants fpr it, as I do not keep it to hand, and they say I should not disclose it to anyone other than the HMRC, as with it, any Tom, Dick or Harry could call the tax office and pretend to be me!
I have looked on the HMRC web site, but if it has the right information, it is not found easily... I have a business to run!
The email from my clients accounts dept. says:
clients accounts dept. said:
I’ve received the agreement for self-employed contractor services that you have completed but you have written confidential in the box for your UTR number.
We ask for your UTR number as it is the only way we can show that we have done all we can to ensure that a contractor is register as self-employed before we pay them as such. We do not do anything with your UTR number i.e. we do not report anything to the tax office or make any deductions.
I would, therefore, like to ask if you could please e-mail your UTR number so that I can attach it to the agreement.
Many thanks,
Now this form I filled in was passed by hand to the person who placed the order, then their manager - before presumably going to the head office.We ask for your UTR number as it is the only way we can show that we have done all we can to ensure that a contractor is register as self-employed before we pay them as such. We do not do anything with your UTR number i.e. we do not report anything to the tax office or make any deductions.
I would, therefore, like to ask if you could please e-mail your UTR number so that I can attach it to the agreement.
Many thanks,
I wouldn't care if they DID report it to the HMRC... but given that they don't, that seems all the more reason not to provide it!
I presume this has to do with measures to combat money laundering... am I under any legal obligation to provide the UTR number?
They DO have my VAT number.
Mill Wheel said:
I presume this has to do with measures to combat money laundering... am I under any legal obligation to provide the UTR number?
Not money laundering but whether you could be classed de facto as an employee. For over a decade part of my job involved responsibility for checking the employment status of contractors. Whether somebody is employed or self-employed in any particular situation depends on the facts of each case. It is a potential minefield. An employer getting this wrong and being found out is subject not only to having to pay Employers NI, but the 'grossing-up' provisions will come into play. This assumes the payment made to you is net of tax and Employee NI. The relevant amounts that they would have deducted to arrive at the net figure will be back calculated and they will have to pay those amounts over to HMRC.
Having a UTR is not, of itself, evidence of self-employment. You can be an employee for your entire working life but if you have any investment income untaxed at source it will mean completing a self assessment return. That will mean you will henceforth have a UTR.
Mill Wheel said:
The email from my clients accounts dept. says:
Two points.clients accounts dept. said:
We ask for your UTR number as it is the only way we can show that we have done all we can to ensure that a contractor is register as self-employed before we pay them as such.
1. They should have completed due diligence BEFORE you did the work and your status should have been confirmed in the contract. For a national organisation not to be aware of that good governance procedure is frankly appalling.
2. The bolded bit is utter piffle. HMRC have an handy tool called ESI which can be used by both parties to the contract.
Mill Wheel said:
They DO have my VAT number.
Imo this is potentially better evidence than a UTR. Someone not in business on their own account would have no need to register for VAT.The problem for you is that, now you have done the work, they have you over a barrel. They can just dig their heels in and, rightly or wrongly, refuse to pay you until you give them what they want. You can only try to persuade them otherwise - e.g. using ESI to confirm your status (hopefully in your favour).
I work in accounts and we employ, PAYE, ltd co's and sole traders like yourself. We also collect UTR numbers as a matter of course, (This is part of our procces to cover ourselves as mentioned above).
Obvoiusly a UTR number in itself proves little, although and as you are VAT registered as also mentioned that is a good indicator too.
In our line of work both of these factors could still also mean nothing and we would have to pay as a PAYE employee, (but i guess thats not relevent here)
bottom line is, you don't have to give the info over BUT it is no more sensitive than your NI number and date of birth so i can't see why you wouldn't?
Obvoiusly a UTR number in itself proves little, although and as you are VAT registered as also mentioned that is a good indicator too.
In our line of work both of these factors could still also mean nothing and we would have to pay as a PAYE employee, (but i guess thats not relevent here)
bottom line is, you don't have to give the info over BUT it is no more sensitive than your NI number and date of birth so i can't see why you wouldn't?
Here's something from the other side, as it were.
http://www.freeindex.co.uk/business-advice/getting...
I wouldn't give my UTR. Tie them up in knots a bit - tell them you're concerned and ask for a copy of their data protection policy.
http://www.freeindex.co.uk/business-advice/getting...
I wouldn't give my UTR. Tie them up in knots a bit - tell them you're concerned and ask for a copy of their data protection policy.
I used to have this quite often when I had an engineering design business. I used design consultants and so long as they were through a limited company I could pay them on a 'gross' basis.
However, if they were not providing their services through a limited company I either had to have specific revenue approval, via their Tax Ref Identity or a letter from their Tax Office giving authorisation, or had to deduct tax at the standard rate on the full amount claimed. If I deducted at standard rate they could reclaim it from HMRC at year end if over-paid, or use it to offset their tax liability.
However, if they were not providing their services through a limited company I either had to have specific revenue approval, via their Tax Ref Identity or a letter from their Tax Office giving authorisation, or had to deduct tax at the standard rate on the full amount claimed. If I deducted at standard rate they could reclaim it from HMRC at year end if over-paid, or use it to offset their tax liability.
If it helps, as soon as I had to do tax return for paying higher rate, I had a UTR. I've only ever worked for companies as an employee but have a small extra income from investments.
So a UTR as far as I can tell, just proves at some point, you had to do a tax return and says nothing about your employment status. I've still got a UTR and I'm now retired!
I'd be asking the IR this question I think!
So a UTR as far as I can tell, just proves at some point, you had to do a tax return and says nothing about your employment status. I've still got a UTR and I'm now retired!
I'd be asking the IR this question I think!
Quintaint said:
Not sure I'd be so lax with my UTR. I had to enter mine as part of setting up an online account with HMRC, and it's used as part of the sign-in procedure.
Maybe I'm a little paranoid...
This was my immediate concern - I seemed to recall when we set up our online HMRC account, it specified that the number had to be treated like a PIN number.Maybe I'm a little paranoid...
For this reason I contacted our accountants to ask.
Soon after we stared online tax, my wife's log in password was rejected, and she had to attend the local office to have it reset - it could not be done online or over the telephone.
Only on attending was she told it COULD be done if she had used the UTR number!!
Having attended the office, she had to return to work to go online and enter the new password - it could not be accessed at the HMRC office!!!
I could understand their concern if I was employed to provide a service - but I have simply supplied a product albeit bespoke and unique to them.
They are a well known organisation and a registered charity.
I called the accounts office today, and was told the only person who understands why they ask for the UTR number has just commenced two weeks holiday!
I am going to email them the ESI info., ask for their data protection policy in writing, and suggest they review their policy in future.
If it all goes wrong, I could go and take the goods back, although they would only have scrap value - but I have done this before with other clients when they have tried things on - I enjoy seeing the look on their faces!!
They are a well known organisation and a registered charity.
I called the accounts office today, and was told the only person who understands why they ask for the UTR number has just commenced two weeks holiday!
I am going to email them the ESI info., ask for their data protection policy in writing, and suggest they review their policy in future.
If it all goes wrong, I could go and take the goods back, although they would only have scrap value - but I have done this before with other clients when they have tried things on - I enjoy seeing the look on their faces!!
plasticpig said:
It's a requirement for anyone paying sub contractors under the Construction Industry Scheme. All new sub contractors need to be verified with HMRC before they are paid. To verify a sub contractor HMRC need the sub contractors UTR number.
This is correct. If you are not working in the CI they can do one. I had this with the NHS where I have experienced similar problems. As Red Devil said earlier, they should have said what they wanted before engaging the OP, not introduce a condition post contract completion.
I have heard them try and justify this as part of their audit procedures which is still nothing to do with the contractor.
You may find that a simple statement confirming that you take full responsibility for your taxes and you indemnify them against any income tax charge levied against them for work carried out by you may suffice.
I sympathise and had to get very aggressive with them to get paid. In your shoes I think I'd initiate their formal complaints procedure.
Edited by 9mm on Wednesday 10th July 22:28
I can't believe the paranoia displayed here. Are you concerned this company are going to contact HMRC and pretend to be you? For what reason? As said, it's a routine request.
I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
AdeTuono said:
I can't believe the paranoia displayed here. Are you concerned this company are going to contact HMRC and pretend to be you? For what reason? As said, it's a routine request.
I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
Absolutely. I think you are being unnecessarily paranoid.I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
We have about 1000 suppliers on our system of which at least half are subcontractors, every one of which has given us their UTR for verification with HMRC (a legal requirement under CIS). I can't see the issue.
Online registration involves a unique customer ID sent by HMRC to your registered place of work AND a password again posted to you. Whist your UTR may well identify you (that's the purpose of it) I doubt anyone can access your online operations with HMRC with just a UTR. And why would they, there can be no benefit to anyone, only malicious intent to you which would be pretty rare?
AdeTuono said:
I can't believe the paranoia displayed here. Are you concerned this company are going to contact HMRC and pretend to be you? For what reason? As said, it's a routine request.
I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
He doesn't have to provide it to get paid, assuming the work is not part of the CIS and that provision of the UTN wasn't a part of the contract.I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
9mm said:
AdeTuono said:
I can't believe the paranoia displayed here. Are you concerned this company are going to contact HMRC and pretend to be you? For what reason? As said, it's a routine request.
I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
He doesn't have to provide it to get paid, assuming the work is not part of the CIS and that provision of the UTN wasn't a part of the contract.I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
9mm said:
they should have said what they wanted before engaging the OP, not introduce a condition post contract completion.
In their defence, this arose because of circumstances.Local office engaged me to produce some work (off site) which has come about because they have been given a grant.
They find the grant has to be spent by a certain date, so everything is rushed, and the paperwork from head office only turned up after the job was nearly completed.
The local staff don't understand it, and it appears neither do the other accounts staff at headquarters!
Giving a cheque with account details on is necessary as part of the transaction. Just because it has not led to you being scammed yet, does not mean it is secure.
The requirement for a UTR number is not necessary, and when you are allocated it, HMRC tell you NOT to reveal it... although I have not found that repeated on any of the advice pages I searched.
Those of you that are happy to give out data unnecessarily can continue to do so.
Those that think that if a cheque has your account details on and you haven't been scammed, then it must be OK, read this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574781/Jer...
AdeTuono said:
9mm said:
AdeTuono said:
I can't believe the paranoia displayed here. Are you concerned this company are going to contact HMRC and pretend to be you? For what reason? As said, it's a routine request.
I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
He doesn't have to provide it to get paid, assuming the work is not part of the CIS and that provision of the UTN wasn't a part of the contract.I assume you've paid for goods by cheque in the past? With your A/C and sort code on? Surely that information should be more of a concern?
Your choice, ultimately. Don't provide it and don't get paid, or do any further work for this national company. Or provide it, and get paid and get on with your life.
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