Red light infringement
Discussion
Ayeup Pistonheads!
Went through a red light (point of no return) at a set of one way temporary traffic signals in York, unintentionally, in march this year & was stopped by the police.
Decided to contest it & go to court. Before the court date i found out that York Highways Dept have not raised an authorisation order iether pre or post these works. So the court adjourned to a later date for 'clarification'
The Road Traffic Act of 1984 Section 53 TSGDR catagorically states..."in the case of urgency portable signals can be verbally authorised with written authorisation in place as soon as is reasonably practicable"
As these temp signals have not been lawfully placed on the highway & correct legal procedure has not been carried out they must be the opposite of lawful...unlawful! Therefore police enforcement cannot take place at unlawful signals.
Any comments or experiences anyone would like to share with me?
40+ years of driving with no endorsements! Full Motorbike licence...CLEAN Car licence...CLEAN HGV class 2 licence...CLEAN NVQ level 2 in passenger transport. Disabled & working with children safety certificates.
I currently am doing around 80,000 miles a year doing long distance private hire work, my own business.
Went through a red light (point of no return) at a set of one way temporary traffic signals in York, unintentionally, in march this year & was stopped by the police.
Decided to contest it & go to court. Before the court date i found out that York Highways Dept have not raised an authorisation order iether pre or post these works. So the court adjourned to a later date for 'clarification'
The Road Traffic Act of 1984 Section 53 TSGDR catagorically states..."in the case of urgency portable signals can be verbally authorised with written authorisation in place as soon as is reasonably practicable"
As these temp signals have not been lawfully placed on the highway & correct legal procedure has not been carried out they must be the opposite of lawful...unlawful! Therefore police enforcement cannot take place at unlawful signals.
Any comments or experiences anyone would like to share with me?
40+ years of driving with no endorsements! Full Motorbike licence...CLEAN Car licence...CLEAN HGV class 2 licence...CLEAN NVQ level 2 in passenger transport. Disabled & working with children safety certificates.
I currently am doing around 80,000 miles a year doing long distance private hire work, my own business.
millie007food said:
Ayeup Pistonheads!
Went through a red light (point of no return) at a set of one way temporary traffic signals in York, unintentionally, in march this year & was stopped by the police.
Decided to contest it & go to court. Before the court date i found out that York Highways Dept have not raised an authorisation order iether pre or post these works. So the court adjourned to a later date for 'clarification'
The Road Traffic Act of 1984 Section 53 TSGDR catagorically states..."in the case of urgency portable signals can be verbally authorised with written authorisation in place as soon as is reasonably practicable"
As these temp signals have not been lawfully placed on the highway & correct legal procedure has not been carried out they must be the opposite of lawful...unlawful! Therefore police enforcement cannot take place at unlawful signals.
Any comments or experiences anyone would like to share with me?
40+ years of driving with no endorsements! Full Motorbike licence...CLEAN Car licence...CLEAN HGV class 2 licence...CLEAN NVQ level 2 in passenger transport. Disabled & working with children safety certificates.
I currently am doing around 80,000 miles a year doing long distance private hire work, my own business.
You're asking for help but you already seem to have found a solution?Went through a red light (point of no return) at a set of one way temporary traffic signals in York, unintentionally, in march this year & was stopped by the police.
Decided to contest it & go to court. Before the court date i found out that York Highways Dept have not raised an authorisation order iether pre or post these works. So the court adjourned to a later date for 'clarification'
The Road Traffic Act of 1984 Section 53 TSGDR catagorically states..."in the case of urgency portable signals can be verbally authorised with written authorisation in place as soon as is reasonably practicable"
As these temp signals have not been lawfully placed on the highway & correct legal procedure has not been carried out they must be the opposite of lawful...unlawful! Therefore police enforcement cannot take place at unlawful signals.
Any comments or experiences anyone would like to share with me?
40+ years of driving with no endorsements! Full Motorbike licence...CLEAN Car licence...CLEAN HGV class 2 licence...CLEAN NVQ level 2 in passenger transport. Disabled & working with children safety certificates.
I currently am doing around 80,000 miles a year doing long distance private hire work, my own business.
ked up, suck it up, costs very little in the long run instead of all this stress you have brought upon yourself.The Crack Fox said:
Oh for goodness sake, pay the bloody fine, man up and stop trying to find loopholes to excuse your mistake wasting time and money of people who have better things to do.
This isn't America.
+1This isn't America.
You knew it was red (not even amber but red!) therefore broken the law. Accept you've done wrong.
I am not a lawyer, but I've see a few episodes of Judge Judy and Rum pole.
My guess is that the lights being illegal is an offence quite separate to you jumping the red.
The fact it was an illegal red light doesn't mean you should ignore it, because it's dangerous.
As far as you were aware at the time they were perfectly legal lights.
But the contractors might get a fine for not doing the right paperwork.
My guess is that the lights being illegal is an offence quite separate to you jumping the red.
The fact it was an illegal red light doesn't mean you should ignore it, because it's dangerous.
As far as you were aware at the time they were perfectly legal lights.
But the contractors might get a fine for not doing the right paperwork.
millie007food said:
The Road Traffic Act of 1984 Section 53 TSGDR catagorically states...
I have no idea if a court will hold that because the signals have no formal authorisation, they cannot be enforced. You might be right, I don't know.If you do decide to go to court, though, then it would help you if you had your references correct. The bit you quoted is not from the Road Traffic Act (and there isn't a RTA in 1984 anyway). Your quote is from Direction 53 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, and outlines the procedures to be followed for authorisation of temporary traffic signals to be placed, under the powers of Section 65 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
Dog Star said:
HaloGen8 said:
You knew it was red (not even amber but red!) therefore broken the law. Accept you've done wrong.
So have the authorities; the law is the law and it cuts both ways.The "man up" comments don't work for me here!
So yes, the council or contractors may have broken regulations, but the OP still went through a red light.
The OP may get off on a technicality, but I'd be willing to bet he won't admit to many that he went through a red and got off.
Hi everyone.
Hmmm stirred a hornets here by the look of it.
Thank you for the comments.
The reason i'm looking at the lawful authorisation of the lights is due to driver forums saying you can't be done if the local highways dept has not got all the necessary permissions in place, which York Highways don't. So there is a precedent here ie abit of previous...most important.
How long have York being doing this?...months or maybe years, hopefully we'll find out early Aug...my court hearing... IF it goes that far!
Having the case adjourned for clarification on the lawfulness of the 'portable signals' should tell you that even the court is not sure!
My taxi insurance is currently just over £5,000 a year for two cars & two drivers. I have been informed that this will rise substantially if a successful prosecution goes ahead.
Insurance companies can load you for 5 years from date of prosecution.
The points on your licence are there for 4 years...not three. They are no longer counted after 3 years but it takes another year before they come off your licence.
I have never gone through a red light in my life. I've seen countless others blatantly ignore reds & blast through them especially at the infamous large Hopgrove roundabout just outside York. Even seen nutters drifting round it (or trying to!!) in their hot hatches late at night (where's a copper when you REALLY want one?)
You are right about the RTA. It is section 53 of the TSGDR 2002 stating the lawful authorisation requirements for portable signals. Thanks for that. Although the Road Traffic Act 1984 was brought up by a solicitor regarding the lawful placing of portable signals on the highway.
So, to sum up.
The lights aren't authorised as laid down by statute, full stop.
Are we saying that you can authorise urgent streetworks-signals just with a nod of the head with nothing at all in writing pre or post repair?
An email from the HAUC general secretariat (head honcho) says NO you can't & he stated that was the definitive answer to my question re the authorisation process.
This is my first ever post so can't get access to the speed, cop, etc part of PH yet although i would love this to be in it.
Hmmm stirred a hornets here by the look of it.
Thank you for the comments.
The reason i'm looking at the lawful authorisation of the lights is due to driver forums saying you can't be done if the local highways dept has not got all the necessary permissions in place, which York Highways don't. So there is a precedent here ie abit of previous...most important.
How long have York being doing this?...months or maybe years, hopefully we'll find out early Aug...my court hearing... IF it goes that far!
Having the case adjourned for clarification on the lawfulness of the 'portable signals' should tell you that even the court is not sure!
My taxi insurance is currently just over £5,000 a year for two cars & two drivers. I have been informed that this will rise substantially if a successful prosecution goes ahead.
Insurance companies can load you for 5 years from date of prosecution.
The points on your licence are there for 4 years...not three. They are no longer counted after 3 years but it takes another year before they come off your licence.
I have never gone through a red light in my life. I've seen countless others blatantly ignore reds & blast through them especially at the infamous large Hopgrove roundabout just outside York. Even seen nutters drifting round it (or trying to!!) in their hot hatches late at night (where's a copper when you REALLY want one?)
You are right about the RTA. It is section 53 of the TSGDR 2002 stating the lawful authorisation requirements for portable signals. Thanks for that. Although the Road Traffic Act 1984 was brought up by a solicitor regarding the lawful placing of portable signals on the highway.
So, to sum up.
The lights aren't authorised as laid down by statute, full stop.
Are we saying that you can authorise urgent streetworks-signals just with a nod of the head with nothing at all in writing pre or post repair?
An email from the HAUC general secretariat (head honcho) says NO you can't & he stated that was the definitive answer to my question re the authorisation process.
This is my first ever post so can't get access to the speed, cop, etc part of PH yet although i would love this to be in it.
I think the point we're trying to make is that while the signals may not have been properly authorised, and the court may or may not be able to prosecute you as a result of this, you still drove through a red light. As far as you knew at the time, those signals were just as legally enforcable as any others you see, so you knowingly and wilfully broke the law. And now you're using a technicality (and it is a technicality, no more) to try and get out of paying the penalties for that.
I appreciate it's a steep price to pay for what could have been a minor lapse of judgement, but I'm sure you can understand the views you're getting. Accept it, pay up, and save yourself the trouble.
Those saying the councils and highways agency need to follow the letter of their directives all the time are probably the same people who complain about roadworks taking weeks with no visible work being done..
I appreciate it's a steep price to pay for what could have been a minor lapse of judgement, but I'm sure you can understand the views you're getting. Accept it, pay up, and save yourself the trouble.
Those saying the councils and highways agency need to follow the letter of their directives all the time are probably the same people who complain about roadworks taking weeks with no visible work being done..
I'm more concerned that you claim to have never done this, or anything else "wrong", in your many thousands of miles and years of driving and yet claim to have "not seen this one"
Sorry but sounds like you've been caught out and your looking for any way out of trouble. Regardless of if the lights SHOULD have been there they WERE there...
As above man up...
Sorry but sounds like you've been caught out and your looking for any way out of trouble. Regardless of if the lights SHOULD have been there they WERE there...
As above man up...
McSam said:
I appreciate it's a steep price to pay for what could have been a minor lapse of judgement, but I'm sure you can understand the views you're getting. Accept it, pay up, and save yourself the trouble.
I don't agree. The law is the law is the law. It's an absolute. If there wasn't the correct authorisation in place then he shouldn't be prosecuted for it.I couldn't give a hoot about the "moral" aspects. Do you yourself take yourself down to the police station and ask for 3 points to be imposed if you have speeded and not been caught?
Personally I'd be off to the nearest specialist solicitor to get advice. I'd not be taking 3 points if I didn't have to, regardless of the "moral" "I did wrong" argument.
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